Re: [IxDA] IxDA's new job board is live

2 Nov 2010 - 4:05pm
3 years ago
10 replies
997 reads
Wendy Fischer
2004

I am opposed to the charging of posting job ads. $265 is too high for a posting fee, particularly when craigslist is only ~$75 to post a job. I feel that if IXDA is charging for job ads, companies and recruiters will be far less likely to post them on IXDA. I have liked the fact that there is a more informal community feeling to IXDA and that there is a wider availability of job posting, albeit in an informal setting. I also feel that there are very good and active recruiters, like Sean Pook, who will be denied the opportunity to really build relationships with people who use the list, because the job posting will be directed to the job posting board, rather than the list. People who use the list will be denied the opportunity to know what recruiters actively recruit for IXD, which is often evidenced by the participation in the discussions list. There is often feedback on job postings - something that can help educate recruiters and employers and change the description of a job posting.

I feel that the job postings should be a part of the community discussion, not a revenue generator for IXDA.

Wendy Boucher-Fischer

Comments

2 Nov 2010 - 4:16pm
LFrancis
2009

I am in agreement with Wendy.

Linda Francis

2 Nov 2010 - 6:07pm
Dave Malouf
2005

Wendy (and others),

Open community is at the heart of the ethos of IxDA. I agree w/ you completely. Core77 & IxDA have been talking about this for quite some time. And the board(s) of IxDA since I was on it also discussed any sort of charging for anything including job posts, let alone one that would be incorporated into a 3rd party system.

I am not a member of the current board and I do not know how the closing of the deal this "term" went down, but while I'm ambivalent about this direction I am in full support of the board's decision so let me explain my perspective.

Your post actually helped me frame my thinking quite a bit. You call for a purely open community and put Job posting as part of that "openness". I would say that any "open" system needs to be able to close off some aspect of itself for the purpose of sustaining itself and for generating value propositions. I.e. Mozilla is open source, but the money the organization makes by being responsible for the packaging of their applications and maintaining their relationships with search engines has made them incredibly wealthy for an open source organization.

Their model is one w/o any pain point for their developers or for their end-users which I think is the rarest kind of Open system "business model" out there. It is rare indeed. I would love for a group of people to consider how a professional association can be as open as Mozilla.org/com and still come up with a sustainability model like that.

At this point any condemnation of the plan is supposition. you don't know what will happen. Maybe it will reduce the horribly stupid ads we see and increase the quality. Maybe it will do something different we can't expect. One thing about an open system is that it is experimental. There is nothing I can see here that is written in stone for eternity and until A) IxDA finds some other revenue streams; B) volunteers start self-organizing in as effective manner so that a core board can harness their energy the way orgs like Mozilla can; C) other unknown decisions are made about what this community & organization are all about, I'm not sure yours and other condemnation of this plan (or worse some of the subversions I've seen posted) are really all that useful.

I'm not trying to squash criticism (hell, I'd be the last person to do that!), but I would like to call on people to be productive in their criticisms. Your comparison to Craigslist actually in my mind supports this decision. Why? B/c of $75 gets you a shot-gun (unfocused) blast, then $265 for a focused sniper shot definitely supports that value. AND this is not just about IxDA, but about probably one of the largest and most successful job boards for designers of any type out there. Maybe coroflot is not a standard for IxDs, but being a part of this community (Core77) gives IxDA real designer cred.

What's worse have you looked at their board? There are a gazillion IxD/UX/IA/VizD related posts up there already. If IxDA was able to convert 1/2 of those to IxDA posts that would still be a HUGE number of job posts. If anything I think that coroflot is getting MORE job posts that are relevant to IxDA than we currently get with our free model, proving that the price is right and the market is willing and able to pay for it.

I have read and "listened" to all the complaints and to be honest, what I've gotten out of this is "facebook backlashitis". Change is bad, we fear change, we'll complain in masse about change and 3-6months later the interface remains the same and no one even remembers that a change was ever made.

(yea, ok, that last part was a tad overly dismissive).

I do stand by the part where being open often means being open to trying something new.

-- dave

3 Nov 2010 - 4:41am
Niklas Mortensen
2009

I must say I'm with Dave and the IxDA board on this. I believe IxDAs dedication to us as practitioners, does not mean that commercially driven enterprises (no matter how small) should get a free ride. If charging for job ads allows IxDA to keep up their activities and commitment to us as practitioners I'm all in. Charging for job-posts does not stop the aforementioned recruiter(s) interacting with our community through the list, they just can't exploit it for their own commercial benefit as before.

Companies should be happy/glad/ecstatic to give something back to the community, and thus supporting the organizations effort to provide great value for them through our continued use (and abuse) of IxDA. Especially recruiters who earn their living by "spamming" the IxDA list strike me as particularly ungrateful when the reaction is to abandon IxDA all together. As if the thousands of hours put in by the IxDA volunteers hasn't benefited them over the years? But hey, this only my personal opinion, so we'll probably have to agree to disagree.

Nik

3 Nov 2010 - 7:46am
Sean Pook
2008

Hi Nik

I'm not in opposition to their being a fee, but remember, the spamming you refer to - if it earns the recruiter a 'living' then this therefore means someone has got a job from the posting, and thus a service has been provided. Being that there is a Jobs board would that be spam? I don't think so.

Cheers

3 Nov 2010 - 8:27am
Matt Nish-Lapidus
2007

Thanks for the great comments everyone.

I am on the board, and my opinion is very close to Dave's.  There are a few other points I'd like everyone to consider:

  • By partnering with Core77 and Coroflot we are able to try out this idea at no monetary cost to the organization. 
  • Coroflot's job board is very successful, so we're using a proven platform.
  • This job board offers great variety of postings to our members from other Coroflot partners, as well as increasing the reach of posts that come from the IxDA.
  • Given the 100% volunteer nature of the IxDA we did not have the resources, either time or finance, to create and manage a custom pay job board.
  • None of this is permanent, if it doesn't work we will reevaluate. 

To add to this, I'd like to say that if you're unhappy with any of the board's decisions and care about this organization the nominations for the board of directors is now open, you can nominate yourself or anybody else.

Matt

3 Nov 2010 - 12:05pm
netwiz
2010

I've had a look at the job posting section. Last time I recruited I did advertise in IxDA, although to be honest I can't recall where the two successful applicants heard about us.   I am most unlikely to use the new job board.   Payment is only by credit card, which is bonkers (good Brit term) for anyone offering corporate services. That's not how corporates pay their bills. I could do it if I really needed to, but it would be awkward.

  Also, the form is horribly American. It asks only for zip code, not post code/zip code which I'd expect of a suitably international site (and some countries don't have zip/post codes at all.   The indication on the form as to which fields are mandatory is poor and incomplete.   I think I know what an intern is, but I'm not 100%, and it's not a term I would use to recruit in the UK.   There's a box to tick that the applicant would need to have a US work permit, but not one for the UK, even when I say that the job is in the UK.   All of this suggests to me (rightly or wrongly) that the target audience is in the US.   Not very good, I'm afraid. I'll try elsewhere first.   Nick
On Wed, Nov 3, 2010 at 1:58 PM, emenel <mattnl@gmail.com> wrote:

Thanks for the great comments everyone.

I am on the board, and my opinion is very close to Dave's.  There are a few other points I'd like everyone to consider:

* By partnering with Core77 and Coroflot we are able to try out this idea at
 no monetary cost to the organization. 
* Coroflot's job board is very successful, so we're using a proven platform.
* This job board offers great variety of postings to our members from other
 Coroflot partners, as well as increasing the reach of posts that come from
 the IxDA.
* Given the 100% volunteer nature of the IxDA we did not have the resources,
 either time or finance, to create and manage a custom pay job board.
* None of this is permanent, if it doesn't work we will reevaluate. 


To add to this, I'd like to say that if you're unhappy with any of the board's decisions and care about this organization the nominations for the board of directors is now open, you can nominate yourself or anybody else.

Matt

(((Please leave a
3 Nov 2010 - 1:05pm
Wendy Fischer
2004

Ok, I just love this post, particularly since IXDA has international members.   --- On Wed, 11/3/10, netwiz <netwiznick@gmail.com> wrote:


From: netwiz <netwiznick@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [IxDA] Re: [IxDA] IxDA's new job board is live
To: erpdesigner@yahoo.com
Date: Wednesday, November 3, 2010, 10:20 AM

I've had a look at the job posting section. Last time I recruited I did advertise in IxDA, although to be honest I can't recall where the two successful applicants heard about us.
 
I am most unlikely to use the new job board.
 
Payment is only by credit card, which is bonkers (good Brit term) for anyone offering corporate services. That's not how corporates pay their bills. I could do it if I really needed to, but it would be awkward.

 
Also, the form is horribly American. It asks only for zip code, not post code/zip code which I'd expect of a suitably international site (and some countries don't have zip/post codes at all.
 
The indication on the form as to which fields are mandatory is poor and incomplete.
 
I think I know what an intern is, but I'm not 100%, and it's not a term I would use to recruit in the UK.
 
There's a box to tick that the applicant would need to have a US work permit, but not one for the UK, even when I say that the job is in the UK.
 
All of this suggests to me (rightly or wrongly) that the target audience is in the US.
 
Not very good, I'm afraid. I'll try elsewhere first.
 
Nick
On Wed, Nov 3, 2010 at 1:58 PM, emenel <mattnl@gmail.com [1]> wrote:

> Thanks for the great comments everyone.
>
> I am on the board, and my opinion is very close to Dave's.  There are a few other points I'd like everyone to consider:
>
> * By partnering with Core77 and Coroflot we are able to try out this idea at
>  no monetary cost to the organization. 
> * Coroflot's job board is very successful, so we're using a proven platform.
> * This job board offers great variety of postings to our members from other
>  Coroflot partners, as well as increasing the reach of posts that come from
>  the IxDA.
> * Given the 100% volunteer nature of the IxDA we did not have the resources,
>  either time or finance, to create and manage a custom pay job board.
> * None of this is permanent, if it doesn't work we will reevaluate. 
>
> To add to this, I'd like to say that if you're unhappy with any of the board's decisions and care about this organization the nominations for the board of directors is now open, you can nominate yourself or anybody else.
>
> Matt
>
> (((Please leave a
>

3 Nov 2010 - 5:05pm
Sean Pook
2008

Nice debate ;-)

Thanks for your ever so kind comment too Wendy!

-----Original Message----- From: ixdaor@host.ixda.org [mailto:ixdaor@host.ixda.org] On Behalf Of Wendy Fischer Sent: 03 November 2010 18:06 To: Sean Pook Subject: Re: [IxDA] Re: [IxDA] IxDA's new job board is live

Ok, I just love this post, particularly since IXDA has international members.   --- On Wed, 11/3/10, netwiz // wrote: > From: netwiz >Subject: Re: [IxDA] Re: [IxDA] IxDA's new job board is live >To: erpdesigner@yahoo.com >Date: Wednesday, November 3, 2010, 10:20 AM >I've had a look at the job posting section. Last time I recruited I did
>advertise in IxDA, although to be honest I can't recall where the two
>successful applicants heard about us. >  >I am most unlikely to use the new job board. >  >Payment is only by credit card, which is bonkers (good Brit term) for anyone
>offering corporate services. That's not how corporates pay their bills. I
>could do it if I really needed to, but it would be awkward. >  >Also, the form is horribly American. It asks only for zip code, not post
>code/zip code which I'd expect of a suitably international site (and some
>countries don't have zip/post codes at all. >  >The indication on the form as to which fields are mandatory is poor and
>incomplete. >  >I think I know what an intern is, but I'm not 100%, and it's not a term I
>would use to recruit in the UK. >  >There's a box to tick that the applicant would >need to have a US work permit, but not one for the UK, even when I say that
>the job is in the UK. >  >All of this suggests to me (rightly or wrongly) that the target audience is
>in the US. >  >Not very good, I'm afraid. I'll try elsewhere first. >  >Nick >On Wed, Nov 3, 2010 at 1:58 PM, emenel wrote: > > Thanks for the great comments everyone. > > > > I am on the board, and my opinion is very close to Dave's.  There are a
>few other points I'd like everyone to consider: > > > > * By partnering with Core77 and Coroflot we are able to try out this idea
>at > >  no monetary cost to the organization.  > > * Coroflot's job board is very successful, so we're using a proven
>platform. > > * This job board offers great variety of postings to our >members from other > >  Coroflot partners, as well as increasing the reach of posts that come
>from > >  the IxDA. > > * Given the 100% volunteer nature of the IxDA we did not have the
>resources, > >  either time or finance, to create and manage a custom pay job board. > > * None of this is permanent, if it doesn't work we will reevaluate.  > > > > To add to this, I'd like to say that if you're unhappy with any of the
>board's decisions and care about this organization the nominations for the
>board of directors is now open, you can nominate yourself or anybody else. > > > > Matt > > > > (((Please leave a > >

(((Please leave al

3 Nov 2010 - 10:21pm
Dave Malouf
2005

I do think that the US-centric position of Coroflot is an important consideration and one that the board should discuss with them ASAP. It does not fit the model of IxDA to be so US-centric at all. 

-- dave

7 Nov 2010 - 4:05am
martinpolley
2007

I agree—the US-centricity is problematic. It makes it hard work to look for jobs outside the US :(

Martin



On Thu, Nov 4, 2010 at 5:48 AM, Dave Malouf <dave.ixd@gmail.com> wrote:

I do think that the US-centric position of Coroflot is an important consideration and one that the board should discuss with them ASAP. It does not fit the model of IxDA to be so US-centric at all. 

-- dave

(((
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