Adobe takes over Macromedia

18 Apr 2005 - 4:51am
8 years ago
35 replies
797 reads
Abhishek Thakkar
2004

Full story here..
http://www.adobe.com/aboutadobe/invrelations/adobeandmacromedia.html
and here
http://http://www.macromedia.com/macromedia/proom/pr/2005/adobe_macromedia.html

FAQ on what will happen here:
http://www.adobe.com/aboutadobe/invrelations/pdfs/AdobeMacromediaFAQ.pdf

bye bye Macromedia, I'll miss u :(
--
Abhishek Thakkar
The Last of the Giants

Comments

18 Apr 2005 - 6:58am
Dave Malouf
2005

As a true Macromedia fan, I am really sad. I understand both company's
motivations and saw some rumblings from some non-disclosure work I was
doing, but didn't really see this coming.

OUCH!

-- dave

18 Apr 2005 - 6:51am
ksinnott
2005

Sad news.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Abhishek Thakkar" <thakkar at gmail.com>
To: "IxD Interactiondesigners. Com"
<discuss-interactiondesigners.com at lists.interactiondesigners.com>
Sent: Monday, April 18, 2005 5:51 AM
Subject: [ID Discuss] Adobe takes over Macromedia

[Please voluntarily trim replies to include only relevant quoted material.]

Full story here..
http://www.adobe.com/aboutadobe/invrelations/adobeandmacromedia.html
and here
http://http://www.macromedia.com/macromedia/proom/pr/2005/adobe_macromedia.html

FAQ on what will happen here:
http://www.adobe.com/aboutadobe/invrelations/pdfs/AdobeMacromediaFAQ.pdf

bye bye Macromedia, I'll miss u :(
--
Abhishek Thakkar
The Last of the Giants
_______________________________________________
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18 Apr 2005 - 8:09am
Tadej Maligoj
2004

Well, let's view it from the bright side.
If they'll manage to join the best of both - macromedia's usability
and functionality with adobe's good look, they might make decent
products.

Tadej

On 4/18/05, Kathleen Sinnott <ksinnott at earthlink.net> wrote:
> [Please voluntarily trim replies to include only relevant quoted material.]
>
> Sad news.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Abhishek Thakkar" <thakkar at gmail.com>
> To: "IxD Interactiondesigners. Com"
> <discuss-interactiondesigners.com at lists.interactiondesigners.com>
> Sent: Monday, April 18, 2005 5:51 AM
> Subject: [ID Discuss] Adobe takes over Macromedia
>
> [Please voluntarily trim replies to include only relevant quoted material.]
>
> Full story here..
> http://www.adobe.com/aboutadobe/invrelations/adobeandmacromedia.html
> and here
> http://http://www.macromedia.com/macromedia/proom/pr/2005/adobe_macromedia.html
>
> FAQ on what will happen here:
> http://www.adobe.com/aboutadobe/invrelations/pdfs/AdobeMacromediaFAQ.pdf
>
> bye bye Macromedia, I'll miss u :(
> --
> Abhishek Thakkar
> The Last of the Giants
> _______________________________________________
> Welcome to the Interaction Design Group!
> To post to this list ....... discuss at ixdg.org
> (Un)Subscription Options ... http://discuss.ixdg.org/
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--
_______________________________
Tadej Maligoj, Information Architect
e1: tadej.maligoj at gmail.com
e2: studio at maligoj.com
m: 031 306 986
w: www.maligoj.com

18 Apr 2005 - 10:21am
Garrick Van Buren
2004

On the good side, perhaps we'll get the best of both suites. On the bad
side, Adobe now has a monopoly on creative applications the same way
Microsoft has a monopoly on 'office' applications.

This is a good opportunity for Corel and some of the open-source
creative applications like Gimp to provide compelling alternatives.

-----------------------------------------------------
Garrick Van Buren

email at garrickvanburen.com
ph: 612 325 9110
-----------------------------------------------------
MNteractive.com
Weblog, Calendar, and Directory for
Minnesota's design community

http://mnteractive.com/
----------------------------------------------------

On Apr 18, 2005, at 8:09 AM, Tadej Maligoj wrote:

> [Please voluntarily trim replies to include only relevant quoted
> material.]
>
> Well, let's view it from the bright side.
> If they'll manage to join the best of both - macromedia's usability
> and functionality with adobe's good look, they might make decent
> products.
>
>
> Tadej
>
> On 4/18/05, Kathleen Sinnott <ksinnott at earthlink.net> wrote:
>> [Please voluntarily trim replies to include only relevant quoted
>> material.]
>>
>> Sad news.
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Abhishek Thakkar" <thakkar at gmail.com>
>> To: "IxD Interactiondesigners. Com"
>> <discuss-interactiondesigners.com at lists.interactiondesigners.com>
>> Sent: Monday, April 18, 2005 5:51 AM
>> Subject: [ID Discuss] Adobe takes over Macromedia
>>
>> [Please voluntarily trim replies to include only relevant quoted
>> material.]
>>
>> Full story here..
>> http://www.adobe.com/aboutadobe/invrelations/adobeandmacromedia.html
>> and here
>> http://http://www.macromedia.com/macromedia/proom/pr/2005/
>> adobe_macromedia.html
>>
>> FAQ on what will happen here:
>> http://www.adobe.com/aboutadobe/invrelations/pdfs/
>> AdobeMacromediaFAQ.pdf
>>
>> bye bye Macromedia, I'll miss u :(
>> --
>> Abhishek Thakkar
>> The Last of the Giants
>> _______________________________________________
>> Welcome to the Interaction Design Group!
>> To post to this list ....... discuss at ixdg.org
>> (Un)Subscription Options ... http://discuss.ixdg.org/
>> Announcements List ......... http://subscribe-announce.ixdg.org/
>> Questions .................. lists at ixdg.org
>> Home ....................... http://ixdg.org/
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Welcome to the Interaction Design Group!
>> To post to this list ....... discuss at ixdg.org
>> (Un)Subscription Options ... http://discuss.ixdg.org/
>> Announcements List ......... http://subscribe-announce.ixdg.org/
>> Questions .................. lists at ixdg.org
>> Home ....................... http://ixdg.org/
>>
>
>
> --
> _______________________________
> Tadej Maligoj, Information Architect
> e1: tadej.maligoj at gmail.com
> e2: studio at maligoj.com
> m: 031 306 986
> w: www.maligoj.com
> _______________________________________________
> Welcome to the Interaction Design Group!
> To post to this list ....... discuss at ixdg.org
> (Un)Subscription Options ... http://discuss.ixdg.org/
> Announcements List ......... http://subscribe-announce.ixdg.org/
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> Home ....................... http://ixdg.org/
>

18 Apr 2005 - 12:33pm
Andrei Herasimchuk
2004

On Apr 18, 2005, at 6:09 AM, Tadej Maligoj wrote:

> Well, let's view it from the bright side.
> If they'll manage to join the best of both - macromedia's usability
> and functionality

Macromedia has some of the most obtuse user interfaces in the business.
Usability is *not* a word people associate with Macromedia's products.
(And of course, imho.) Functionality, yes, I would agree with that.

> with adobe's good look, they might make decent
> products.

Adobe's good look? Considering I'm one of the guys who helped to create
that look which is beyond dated at this point, I'd hardly say that was
what we were good at at Adobe. Not even close actually.

Who knows what will come of it. It all depends on how the merger is
handled. Adobe's has their best success with outright acquisitions than
with "mergers." The whole merger thing is always painful. Of course,
Adobe just wants Flash out of this. I'm doubtful they could care that
much about the rest of MM product line. But I left about a year ago, so
I'm not sure what they're thinking this time out.

Andrei

18 Apr 2005 - 1:05pm
Donna Fritzsche
2005

On Mon, 18 Apr 2005 10:33:56 -0700, Andrei Herasimchuk wrote

> Macromedia has some of the most obtuse user interfaces in the
> business. Usability is *not* a word people associate with
> Macromedia's products.
>

Sorry to disagree, but Freehand is very intuitive and usable to me and I have
known others who concur.

Donna

18 Apr 2005 - 1:40pm
Pradyot Rai
2004

Donna M. Fritzsche <donnamarie at amichi.info> wrote:
> On Mon, 18 Apr 2005 10:33:56 -0700, Andrei Herasimchuk wrote
>
> > Macromedia has some of the most obtuse user interfaces in the
> > business. Usability is *not* a word people associate with
> > Macromedia's products.
> >
>
> Sorry to disagree, but Freehand is very intuitive and usable to me and I have
> known others who concur.
>
> Donna

Adobe and Macromedia are both at the same level. They are both
"Designed" with their market and users in mind. Usability in this
context is political jargon. The similarity among both of them is that
they have very clearly defined market segments and user groups, with
very small or manageable overlap.

The question is will this merger cannibalize any of their
mutually-exclusive skills/domains? Andrei said it could, for example,
Flash's market share.

Prady

18 Apr 2005 - 2:42pm
Tadej Maligoj
2004

> Macromedia has some of the most obtuse user interfaces in the business.
> Usability is *not* a word people associate with Macromedia's products.
> (And of course, imho.) Functionality, yes, I would agree with that.
>

Of course I was provocative! ... ;+)
I used Freehand drawing maps for years and still do. Lately I use
Adobe Creative Suite (for simpler tasks), because it is really handy
working with objects over different application.
I guess the problem of searching functionality (=usability) is quite
the same for the users changing tools in other direction.
However, reading the forums you can find rather acrid comments on
mastery of hiding functionality in Adobe software...

> Adobe's good look? Considering I'm one of the guys who helped to create
> that look which is beyond dated at this point, I'd hardly say that was
> what we were good at at Adobe. Not even close actually.

What I meant was a polished look. In my opinion, Adobe products (i.e.
latest Suite tools) is a way to exploit the screen real estate in
effective and typographically correct way.

Tadej

--
_______________________________
Tadej Maligoj, Information Architect
e1: tadej.maligoj at gmail.com
e2: studio at maligoj.com
m: 031 306 986
w: www.maligoj.com

18 Apr 2005 - 3:02pm
Jack L. Moffett
2005

Any predictions?

I would guess that Dreamweaver wins out over GoLive. Obviously, Flash will
replace LiveMotion. ImageReady beats out Fireworks. Illustrator finally
tosses Freehand out of the ring. Although wouldn't it be nice if we had a
repeat of the Aldus acquisition, in which Freehand gets picked up by a
lesser competitor trying to break into the graphics arena, and they do great
things? Remember when Macromedia's product line was Director, Authorware,
and SoundEdit 16? And what happens to Macromedia's offerings, like Director,
that aren't directly related to their RIA strategy?

Jack

Jack L. Moffett
Interaction Designer
inmedius
412.690.2360 x219
http://www.inmedius.com

The public is more familiar with
bad design than good design.
It is, in effect, conditioned
to prefer bad design, because
that is what it lives with.
The new becomes threatening,
the old reassuring.

- Paul Rand

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18 Apr 2005 - 4:38pm
Wendy Fischer
2004

It is a shame that this merger is happening. It gives designers less of a selection of tools to work with and have choice in the marketplace.

I realize that amist all of the mergers (peoplesoft/oracle, cingular/att wireless, etc) that this is probably good for investors, but it seems like there is less competition and less choice.

-Wendy

18 Apr 2005 - 4:57pm
Mal
2005

Jack L. Moffett wrote:

>Any predictions?
>
>
Flash was, of course, the golden egg here.

However, Adobe have dabbled in web 3d before, somewhat unsucessfully. I
think that Director and Shockwave 3D might be of key interest to them,
especially in the rich media / ad agency market ( see
http://www.esuvee.com ( Play Esuvee course ) and
http://www.sonypictures.com/movies/triplex2 ( Enter site, then The
Mission ) to see two new examples of rich, interactive 3D content.

As for some of the other products that would compete ( eg someone
mentioned Free-hand merged with Illustrator = Frustrator ), it'll be an
interesting time for them.
Mal

18 Apr 2005 - 5:19pm
Andrei Herasimchuk
2004

Jack L. Moffett wrote:

> I would guess that Dreamweaver wins out over GoLive.

Not sure either really matter to be honest. Neither programs really have
any serious market penetration inside real web development projects or
products.

> Obviously, Flash will replace LiveMotion.

LiveMotion was put into "retirement" for all intents and purposes some
time ago. But even if it had not, this would be probably be more than
correct.

> ImageReady beats out Fireworks.

I doubt that. Both products suffer from different problems, but neither
does that well. Of the two, Fireworks does a lot better with its users
and market though.

> Illustrator finally
> tosses Freehand out of the ring.

This is the one I'm most curious about. Since Freehand was tossed back
when Adobe bought Aldus the first time around. It will be interesting to
see what happens this time around.

> Although wouldn't it be nice if we had a
> repeat of the Aldus acquisition, in which Freehand gets picked up by a
> lesser competitor trying to break into the graphics arena, and they do great
> things?

I'd actually be willing to bet this does happen.

> Remember when Macromedia's product line was Director, Authorware,
> and SoundEdit 16? And what happens to Macromedia's offerings, like Director,
> that aren't directly related to their RIA strategy?

Don't forget Swivel 3D! 8^)

Andrei

18 Apr 2005 - 5:22pm
Andrei Herasimchuk
2004

Wendy Fischer wrote:

> It is a shame that this merger is happening. It gives designers less of a selection of tools to
> work with and have choice in the marketplace.

Maybe someone (or some people) will finally get serious about the
interfaces for open source creative apps? The GIMP? A nice curiousity,
but as a real app it leaves much to be desired.

Andrei

18 Apr 2005 - 5:50pm
Todd Warfel
2003

We've tried several times to ditch Illustrator in favor of Freehand
(native connection tools, native multi-page support), but just don't
find the UI nearly as intuitive as Illustrator. Perhaps after a month
of toying with it, my opinion might change.

On Apr 18, 2005, at 2:05 PM, Donna M. Fritzsche wrote:

> Sorry to disagree, but Freehand is very intuitive and usable to me and
> I have
> known others who concur.
>
> Donna

Cheers!

Todd R. Warfel
Partner, Design & Usability Specialist
MessageFirst | making products easier to use
--------------------------------------
Contact Info
V: (607) 339-9640
E: twarfel at messagefirst.com
W: messagefirst.com
AIM: twarfel at mac.com
Blog: http://toddwarfel.com/
--------------------------------------
Problems are just opportunities for success.

18 Apr 2005 - 5:56pm
Mal
2005

Andrei Herasimchuk wrote:

>> It is a shame that this merger is happening. It gives designers less
>> of a selection of tools to
>
> > work with and have choice in the marketplace.
>
> Maybe someone (or some people) will finally get serious about the
> interfaces for open source creative apps? The GIMP? A nice curiousity,
> but as a real app it leaves much to be desired.

I think the OSS team behind GIMP also restricted its future ( features,
UI, general direction ) ( according to some of its users ), hence the
development of filmGIMP, or CinePaint.

Mal

18 Apr 2005 - 5:57pm
Andrei Herasimchuk
2004

Donna M. Fritzsche wrote:

> Sorry to disagree, but Freehand is very intuitive and usable to me and I have
> known others who concur.

That is but one product in their entire product line. (And one that was
acquired by MM when Adobe dropped it during the Aldus acquisition.) So
sure, I know lots of people who prefer FH to AI. The point I was aiming
was the broader statement/idea that MM had more usable products than
Adobe, which I find a bit overreaching.

Andrei

18 Apr 2005 - 7:11pm
Clay Newton
2004

The News.com <http://News.com> perspective on what the merger is really
about. A hint: it isn't Illustrator...
http://tinyurl.com/79alh

-Clay

18 Apr 2005 - 8:13pm
Wendy Fischer
2004

Having worked on open source software as a UI designer for a corporate company, I just don't see designers (for the most part) working on open source software unless it pays or offers some personal reward. Maybe if it's a true open source project and not sponsored by a corporation (IBM for instance). For the most part, commercially viable open source software has some corporate muscle flexed behind it.

-Wendy

Andrei Herasimchuk <andrei at designbyfire.com> wrote:
[Please voluntarily trim replies to include only relevant quoted material.]

Wendy Fischer wrote:

> It is a shame that this merger is happening. It gives designers less of a selection of tools to
> work with and have choice in the marketplace.

Maybe someone (or some people) will finally get serious about the
interfaces for open source creative apps? The GIMP? A nice curiousity,
but as a real app it leaves much to be desired.

Andrei
_______________________________________________
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18 Apr 2005 - 11:22pm
Jared M. Spool
2003

At 06:57 PM 4/18/2005, Andrei Herasimchuk wrote:
>Donna M. Fritzsche wrote:
>
> > Sorry to disagree, but Freehand is very intuitive and usable to me and
> I have known others who concur.
>
>That is but one product in their entire product line. (And one that was
>acquired by MM when Adobe dropped it during the Aldus acquisition.) So
>sure, I know lots of people who prefer FH to AI.

Having studied how designers learn and use their tools (and how other
folks, like programmers learn and use theirs), I can tell you that there is
a huge loyalty to learning tools. A programmer investing in Emacs will find
everything else to be much harder, not because it actually is harder, but
because of the investment they've made and the mastery achieved.

For every loyal Freehand user, I can show you a loyal Illustrator or Corel
user. And they feel just as loyal to *their* particular products.

It's a natural part of adapting to complex tools that users spend immense
amounts of time with. In many ways, it's almost like getting married.

Jared

Jared M. Spool, Founding Principal
User Interface Engineering
4 Lookout Lane, Unit 4d
Middleton, MA 01949
978 777-9123
jspool at uie.com
http://www.uie.com

19 Apr 2005 - 4:49am
Donna Fritzsche
2005

>
>Having studied how designers learn and use their tools (and how
>other folks, like programmers learn and use theirs), I can tell you
>that there is a huge loyalty to learning tools. A programmer
>investing in Emacs will find everything else to be much harder, not
>because it actually is harder, but because of the investment they've
>made and the mastery achieved.
>

I think there is some truth to your statement (and I love emacs!),
but I learned Freehand after Illustrator. In this case, I think
there is some legitimate difference in mental models, approach, etc.
Which I think also explains why Todd didn' t take to it and I did
(for instance,)

Donna

19 Apr 2005 - 12:00am
Hans Omli
2005

As a regular user of both Adobe and Macromedia products, I'm excited about
the merger and the potential for closer integration between their tools.
Unlike many acquisitions, there's a great deal for both sides to gain from
this deal and I think the whole will be much greater than the parts!

Hans

19 Apr 2005 - 12:45am
Steve Baty
2009

>From memory, Freehand was put on the market after the Aldus purchase because
competition regulators in the US wouldn't let Adobe retire it entirely. I
don't think that argument has changed all that much - retiring either
Freehand or Illustrator will give a virtual monopoly to the company - and
they can't reasonably continue both products, so they may be forced to offer
the product for sale.

The same may go for some of the other products mentioned. We may find
Fireworks or ImageReady with a For Sale sign as well.

Steve Baty
Senior Analyst, Red Square

On 19/04/05, Andrei Herasimchuk <andrei at designbyfire.com> wrote:
> [Please voluntarily trim replies to include only relevant quoted
material.]
>
> Jack L. Moffett wrote:
>
> > I would guess that Dreamweaver wins out over GoLive.
>
> Not sure either really matter to be honest. Neither programs really have
> any serious market penetration inside real web development projects or
> products.
>
> > Obviously, Flash will replace LiveMotion.
>
> LiveMotion was put into "retirement" for all intents and purposes some
> time ago. But even if it had not, this would be probably be more than
> correct.
>
> > ImageReady beats out Fireworks.
>
> I doubt that. Both products suffer from different problems, but neither
> does that well. Of the two, Fireworks does a lot better with its users
> and market though.
>
> > Illustrator finally
> > tosses Freehand out of the ring.
>
> This is the one I'm most curious about. Since Freehand was tossed back
> when Adobe bought Aldus the first time around. It will be interesting to
> see what happens this time around.
>
> > Although wouldn't it be nice if we had a
> > repeat of the Aldus acquisition, in which Freehand gets picked up by a
> > lesser competitor trying to break into the graphics arena, and they do
great
> > things?
>
> I'd actually be willing to bet this does happen.
>
> > Remember when Macromedia's product line was Director, Authorware,
> > and SoundEdit 16? And what happens to Macromedia's offerings, like
Director,
> > that aren't directly related to their RIA strategy?
>
> Don't forget Swivel 3D! 8^)
>
> Andrei
> _______________________________________________
> Welcome to the Interaction Design Group!
> To post to this list ....... discuss at ixdg.org
> (Un)Subscription Options ... http://discuss.ixdg.org/
> Announcements List ......... http://subscribe-announce.ixdg.org/
> Questions .................. lists at ixdg.org
> Home ....................... http://ixdg.org/
>

19 Apr 2005 - 6:56am
Jared M. Spool
2003

At 05:49 AM 4/19/2005, Donna Fritzsche wrote:

>>Having studied how designers learn and use their tools (and how other
>>folks, like programmers learn and use theirs), I can tell you that there
>>is a huge loyalty to learning tools. A programmer investing in Emacs will
>>find everything else to be much harder, not because it actually is
>>harder, but because of the investment they've made and the mastery achieved.
>
>I think there is some truth to your statement (and I love emacs!), but I
>learned Freehand after Illustrator. In this case, I think there is some
>legitimate difference in mental models, approach, etc. Which I think also
>explains why Todd didn' t take to it and I did (for instance,)

Oh, don't get me wrong. I'm not suggesting that people *never* switch. I'm
just saying that when people become invested in an interface, the "cost" of
switching increases. When we've found users that *have* switched, their new
home often comes with an even higher investment, making the costs of a
subsequent switch even more unlikely.

Mastery of these tools comes with a high price. Mastery of more than one
tool is an even higher price, often because much of mastery is contained in
kinesthetic memory ("finger macros") and other cognitive shortcuts that
make it hard to overcome. Reprogramming ones brain for a new tool, after a
previous one has been mastered, is extremely difficult.

Jared

Jared M. Spool
User Interface Engineering
http://www.uie.com jspool at uie.com

UI10 Anniversery Gift: Limited Edition iPod!
See details at http://www.uiconf.com

19 Apr 2005 - 8:11am
Jerry John
2004

>...Mastery of these tools comes with a high price. Mastery of more than one
>tool is an even higher price, often because much of mastery is contained in
>kinesthetic memory ("finger macros") and other cognitive shortcuts that
>make it hard to overcome. Reprogramming ones brain for a new tool, after a
>previous one has been mastered, is extremely difficult.

>Jared

i'm probably talking out of context here - but both adobe and macromedia
have capability of configuring the tool palette - you can import entire
shortcuts scripts from adobe into macromedia and visa versa - this is what
i do coz i need to use both tool do get my work done -

- jerry

-----Original Message-----
From:
discuss-interactiondesigners.com-bounces at lists.interactiondesigners.com
[mailto:discuss-interactiondesigners.com-bounces at lists.interactiondesign
ers.com]On Behalf Of Jared M. Spool
Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2005 5:27 PM
To: Donna Fritzsche
Cc: IxDG Discussion
Subject: Re: [ID Discuss] Adobe takes over Macromedia

[Please voluntarily trim replies to include only relevant quoted material.]

At 05:49 AM 4/19/2005, Donna Fritzsche wrote:

>>Having studied how designers learn and use their tools (and how other
>>folks, like programmers learn and use theirs), I can tell you that there
>>is a huge loyalty to learning tools. A programmer investing in Emacs will
>>find everything else to be much harder, not because it actually is
>>harder, but because of the investment they've made and the mastery
achieved.
>
>I think there is some truth to your statement (and I love emacs!), but I
>learned Freehand after Illustrator. In this case, I think there is some
>legitimate difference in mental models, approach, etc. Which I think also
>explains why Todd didn' t take to it and I did (for instance,)

Oh, don't get me wrong. I'm not suggesting that people *never* switch. I'm
just saying that when people become invested in an interface, the "cost" of
switching increases. When we've found users that *have* switched, their new
home often comes with an even higher investment, making the costs of a
subsequent switch even more unlikely.

Jared M. Spool
User Interface Engineering
http://www.uie.com jspool at uie.com

UI10 Anniversery Gift: Limited Edition iPod!
See details at http://www.uiconf.com

_______________________________________________
Welcome to the Interaction Design Group!
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19 Apr 2005 - 8:33am
ErikaOrrick
1969

I don't think you are out of context at all, rather, the fact that the
ability to import tool palettes exists further validates Jared (et al)'s
point. Software manufacturers are aware of the loyalty that the
learning investment engenders and try to compensate. You see the same
thing in other types of software. Word's use of WordPerfect shortcuts,
Money/Quicken (hmmm, there seems to be a trend here....)

Erika

-----Original Message-----
From:
discuss-interactiondesigners.com-bounces at lists.interactiondesigners.com
[mailto:discuss-interactiondesigners.com-bounces at lists.interactiondesign
ers.com] On Behalf Of Jerry John
Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2005 8:31 AM
To: IxDG Discussion
Subject: RE: [ID Discuss] Adobe takes over Macromedia

[Please voluntarily trim replies to include only relevant quoted
material.]

>...Mastery of these tools comes with a high price. Mastery of more than
one
>tool is an even higher price, often because much of mastery is
contained in
>kinesthetic memory ("finger macros") and other cognitive shortcuts that
>make it hard to overcome. Reprogramming ones brain for a new tool,
after a
>previous one has been mastered, is extremely difficult.

>Jared

i'm probably talking out of context here - but both adobe and macromedia
have capability of configuring the tool palette - you can import entire
shortcuts scripts from adobe into macromedia and visa versa - this is
what
i do coz i need to use both tool do get my work done -

- jerry

-----Original Message-----
From:
discuss-interactiondesigners.com-bounces at lists.interactiondesigners.com
[mailto:discuss-interactiondesigners.com-bounces at lists.interactiondesign
ers.com]On Behalf Of Jared M. Spool
Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2005 5:27 PM
To: Donna Fritzsche
Cc: IxDG Discussion
Subject: Re: [ID Discuss] Adobe takes over Macromedia

[Please voluntarily trim replies to include only relevant quoted
material.]

At 05:49 AM 4/19/2005, Donna Fritzsche wrote:

>>Having studied how designers learn and use their tools (and how other
>>folks, like programmers learn and use theirs), I can tell you that
there
>>is a huge loyalty to learning tools. A programmer investing in Emacs
will
>>find everything else to be much harder, not because it actually is
>>harder, but because of the investment they've made and the mastery
achieved.
>
>I think there is some truth to your statement (and I love emacs!), but
I
>learned Freehand after Illustrator. In this case, I think there is
some
>legitimate difference in mental models, approach, etc. Which I think
also
>explains why Todd didn' t take to it and I did (for instance,)

Oh, don't get me wrong. I'm not suggesting that people *never* switch.
I'm
just saying that when people become invested in an interface, the "cost"
of
switching increases. When we've found users that *have* switched, their
new
home often comes with an even higher investment, making the costs of a
subsequent switch even more unlikely.

Jared M. Spool
User Interface Engineering
http://www.uie.com jspool at uie.com

UI10 Anniversery Gift: Limited Edition iPod!
See details at http://www.uiconf.com

_______________________________________________
Welcome to the Interaction Design Group!
To post to this list ....... discuss at ixdg.org
(Un)Subscription Options ... http://discuss.ixdg.org/
Announcements List ......... http://subscribe-announce.ixdg.org/
Questions .................. lists at ixdg.org
Home ....................... http://ixdg.org/

_______________________________________________
Welcome to the Interaction Design Group!
To post to this list ....... discuss at ixdg.org
(Un)Subscription Options ... http://discuss.ixdg.org/
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19 Apr 2005 - 8:49am
Jared M. Spool
2003

Hi Jerry,

I've seen others who do similar things (such as creating Emacs macros that
simulate VIM commands), but it's rare and shows (1) an unusual talent for
designing the space around you and (b) the harsh reality of not having
everything they need in a single tool.

Most people who master these tools don't bring the commands from one into
the other or really customize their environment. At least, that's what our
research has shown.

Jared

At 08:12 AM 4/19/2005, you wrote:

> >...Mastery of these tools comes with a high price. Mastery of more than one
> >tool is an even higher price, often because much of mastery is contained in
> >kinesthetic memory ("finger macros") and other cognitive shortcuts that
> >make it hard to overcome. Reprogramming ones brain for a new tool, after a
> >previous one has been mastered, is extremely difficult.
>
>Jared
>
>i'm probably talking out of context here - but both adobe and macromedia
>have capability of configuring the tool palette - you can import entire
>shortcuts scripts from adobe into macromedia and visa versa - this is what
>i do coz i need to use both tool do get my work done -
>
>- jerry
>
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From:
>discuss-interactiondesigners.com-bounces at lists.interactiondesigners.com
>[mailto:discuss-interactiondesigners.com-bounces at lists.interactiondesign
>ers.com]On Behalf Of Jared M. Spool
>Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2005 5:27 PM
>To: Donna Fritzsche
>Cc: IxDG Discussion
>Subject: Re: [ID Discuss] Adobe takes over Macromedia
>
>
>[Please voluntarily trim replies to include only relevant quoted material.]
>
>At 05:49 AM 4/19/2005, Donna Fritzsche wrote:
>
>
> >>Having studied how designers learn and use their tools (and how other
> >>folks, like programmers learn and use theirs), I can tell you that there
> >>is a huge loyalty to learning tools. A programmer investing in Emacs will
> >>find everything else to be much harder, not because it actually is
> >>harder, but because of the investment they've made and the mastery
>achieved.
> >
> >I think there is some truth to your statement (and I love emacs!), but I
> >learned Freehand after Illustrator. In this case, I think there is some
> >legitimate difference in mental models, approach, etc. Which I think also
> >explains why Todd didn' t take to it and I did (for instance,)
>
>Oh, don't get me wrong. I'm not suggesting that people *never* switch. I'm
>just saying that when people become invested in an interface, the "cost" of
>switching increases. When we've found users that *have* switched, their new
>home often comes with an even higher investment, making the costs of a
>subsequent switch even more unlikely.
>
>
>
>Jared M. Spool
>User Interface Engineering
>http://www.uie.com jspool at uie.com
>
>UI10 Anniversery Gift: Limited Edition iPod!
>See details at http://www.uiconf.com
>
>_______________________________________________
>Welcome to the Interaction Design Group!
>To post to this list ....... discuss at ixdg.org
>(Un)Subscription Options ... http://discuss.ixdg.org/
>Announcements List ......... http://subscribe-announce.ixdg.org/
>Questions .................. lists at ixdg.org
>Home ....................... http://ixdg.org/

Jared M. Spool, Founding Principal
User Interface Engineering
4 Lookout Lane, Unit 4d
Middleton, MA 01949
978 777-9123
jspool at uie.com
http://www.uie.com

18 Apr 2005 - 10:39am
Abhishek Thakkar
2004

On 4/18/05, Garrick Van Buren <email at garrickvanburen.com> wrote:
> This is a good opportunity for Corel and some of the open-source
> creative applications like Gimp to provide compelling alternatives.

Dont forget the Google's Picasa, lot of photobloggers have now started
using the correction tools of picasa, its much lighter than photoshop
and totally free. Adobe has much to fear in their market for "Photo
Hobbylsts and Enthusiasts"

The new camcorders now put video on USB 2.0 rather than Firewire, the
dumping and rendering is also peaceful because of many applications,
sizes are reduced as AVI's, RMs and wmv's. Will google go for
VideoBlog and challange Premiere ??
--
Abhishek Thakkar
The Last of the Giants

18 Apr 2005 - 11:35am
Pradyot Rai
2004

On the bad side, Monopolist is never good for consumers. They have no
incentive to do improvement on product or consumer satisfaction.
Besides so many Microeconomic theories, example of MIcrosoft has
confirmed this.

Also, looking at the patterns from the past, this may be bad news for
some of those working in these firms.

2 cents,
Prady

On 4/18/05, Garrick Van Buren <email at garrickvanburen.com> wrote:
> [Please voluntarily trim replies to include only relevant quoted material.]
>
> On the good side, perhaps we'll get the best of both suites. On the bad
> side, Adobe now has a monopoly on creative applications the same way
> Microsoft has a monopoly on 'office' applications.
>
> This is a good opportunity for Corel and some of the open-source
> creative applications like Gimp to provide compelling alternatives.
>
> -----------------------------------------------------
> Garrick Van Buren
>
> email at garrickvanburen.com
> ph: 612 325 9110
> -----------------------------------------------------
> MNteractive.com
> Weblog, Calendar, and Directory for
> Minnesota's design community
>
> http://mnteractive.com/
> ----------------------------------------------------
>
>
> On Apr 18, 2005, at 8:09 AM, Tadej Maligoj wrote:
>
> > [Please voluntarily trim replies to include only relevant quoted
> > material.]
> >
> > Well, let's view it from the bright side.
> > If they'll manage to join the best of both - macromedia's usability
> > and functionality with adobe's good look, they might make decent
> > products.
> >
> >
> > Tadej
> >
> > On 4/18/05, Kathleen Sinnott <ksinnott at earthlink.net> wrote:
> >> [Please voluntarily trim replies to include only relevant quoted
> >> material.]
> >>
> >> Sad news.
> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >> From: "Abhishek Thakkar" <thakkar at gmail.com>
> >> To: "IxD Interactiondesigners. Com"
> >> <discuss-interactiondesigners.com at lists.interactiondesigners.com>
> >> Sent: Monday, April 18, 2005 5:51 AM
> >> Subject: [ID Discuss] Adobe takes over Macromedia
> >>
> >> [Please voluntarily trim replies to include only relevant quoted
> >> material.]
> >>
> >> Full story here..
> >> http://www.adobe.com/aboutadobe/invrelations/adobeandmacromedia.html
> >> and here
> >> http://http://www.macromedia.com/macromedia/proom/pr/2005/
> >> adobe_macromedia.html
> >>
> >> FAQ on what will happen here:
> >> http://www.adobe.com/aboutadobe/invrelations/pdfs/
> >> AdobeMacromediaFAQ.pdf
> >>
> >> bye bye Macromedia, I'll miss u :(
> >> --
> >> Abhishek Thakkar
> >> The Last of the Giants
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Welcome to the Interaction Design Group!
> >> To post to this list ....... discuss at ixdg.org
> >> (Un)Subscription Options ... http://discuss.ixdg.org/
> >> Announcements List ......... http://subscribe-announce.ixdg.org/
> >> Questions .................. lists at ixdg.org
> >> Home ....................... http://ixdg.org/
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Welcome to the Interaction Design Group!
> >> To post to this list ....... discuss at ixdg.org
> >> (Un)Subscription Options ... http://discuss.ixdg.org/
> >> Announcements List ......... http://subscribe-announce.ixdg.org/
> >> Questions .................. lists at ixdg.org
> >> Home ....................... http://ixdg.org/
> >>
> >
> >
> > --
> > _______________________________
> > Tadej Maligoj, Information Architect
> > e1: tadej.maligoj at gmail.com
> > e2: studio at maligoj.com
> > m: 031 306 986
> > w: www.maligoj.com
> > _______________________________________________
> > Welcome to the Interaction Design Group!
> > To post to this list ....... discuss at ixdg.org
> > (Un)Subscription Options ... http://discuss.ixdg.org/
> > Announcements List ......... http://subscribe-announce.ixdg.org/
> > Questions .................. lists at ixdg.org
> > Home ....................... http://ixdg.org/
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> Welcome to the Interaction Design Group!
> To post to this list ....... discuss at ixdg.org
> (Un)Subscription Options ... http://discuss.ixdg.org/
> Announcements List ......... http://subscribe-announce.ixdg.org/
> Questions .................. lists at ixdg.org
> Home ....................... http://ixdg.org/
>

19 Apr 2005 - 5:52pm
Frank Elley
2004

This is a topic that will bring even long-time lurkers out into the open. The following those is mostly a rant on the business issues, not product design per se, so feel free to skip on to the next message. ;)

Personally, I'm not quite so much worried about "which tool wins" as what it means in the long term for innovation.

I see Macromedia as a very customer-focused company: innovative, smart, and "with it" in terms of understanding customers and their goals. In their product management style I sense a real connection and engagement with customers, and their enthusiasm comes through in the way they design, market, and support their tools ... and in the way they develop a loyal community around their tools.

In Adobe I see a lethargic, conservative company that will compromise on customer satisfaction when they know they can get away with it. How else to justify a $150 upgrade fee for a minor release of Photoshop, except that they believe that for a large segment of their population there is simply no other choice. (I'm talking perception, not reality, so don't go talking about Gimp, OK? ;) Or consider their incredibly user-hostile upgrade experience. I don't sense enthusiasm or commitment, only a sense of "we gotta do this community thing because that's just the way it's done these days."

Corporate cultures rarely merge to produce a best of both worlds. One culture, usually the "buying" one, subsumes the other.

I fear that in the long run Adobe will become like all large companies who reach a near monopoly: obsessed with milking existing customer bases, innovating very little, and only slowly when they do.

Besides the fact I considered Macromedia a smarter and more innovative company, I think they also served to keep Adobe honest and at least trying to innovate where they found it necessary. Having seen more than a few mergers, I think it naive to believe that the influx of Macromedia spirit will win out in any signficant way in the end, and Adobe will eventually extinguish the Macromedia fire and enthusiasm.

And how much will they charge for "Adobe Dreamwever" when there are no viable high-end competitors? Bend over and grab your checkbook.

As they say, just my two cents.

19 Apr 2005 - 7:22pm
Nico Macdonald
2005

At 3:52 pm -0700 19/4/05, Frank Elley wrote:
>Personally, I'm not quite so much worried about "which tool wins" as what it means in the long term for innovation.
...
>In Adobe I see a lethargic, conservative company that will compromise on customer satisfaction when they know they can get away with it.

My commentary on the acquisition addresses some of these sentiments, and the bigger context of the development of software industry and data models.

- 'Adobe and Macromedia: bad news for online tools' Nico Macdonald, The Register, 19th April 2005 http://www.theregister.co.uk/2005/04/19/adobe_and_macromedia_bad_news_for_online_tools/

I observe that while Adobe has been unable to focus on the Internet its Acrobat strategy was a far-sighted play. Its print heritage and the conservatism of its corporate users has limited, and even undermined, its online activities and will have an adverse effect on Macromedia's pioneering products.

Nico Macdonald
--
Writing and speaking on design, technology and business
http://writing.spy.co.uk/

19 Apr 2005 - 7:51pm
Dave Malouf
2005

> I observe that while Adobe has been unable to focus on the
> Internet its Acrobat strategy was a far-sighted play. Its
> print heritage and the conservatism of its corporate users
> has limited, and even undermined, its online activities and
> will have an adverse effect on Macromedia's pioneering products.

Something I've been thinking about ...

I have observed that among the corporate, conservative set, Flash has become
an anathema. You just say it and you get shown the door. I'm being a tad
overstated, but for the most part, Flash and the Enterprise do not belong. I
know someone on this list is doing good work to make that not true, but that
is the exception and unfortunately that exception can't be publicized widely
due to the nature of enterprise work in general.

My point is that Flash has a brand image AND quite honestly is missing a
piece of the necessary stakeholder base for adoption into the more
profitable world of the corporate enterprise.

A hope that I have is that Adobe FlashPDF will bring a depiction of maturity
to the the Flash brand, a sense of security, and most importantly a valuable
developer base that has been hard to convert from the .NET, Java/Eclipse
universe.

Adobe doesn't have any relationship with these developers currently, but
then again they don't have relationships with any developers and they can
work to develop a co-branded development environment between Flash and PDF
(as C|Net called it the web app is the real play here) and PDF can get a
real application front-end, and Flash can get some real developers who want
to engineer for it in the Enterprise environment.

<sidebar>
BTW, I would love to talk to anyone who is doing any RIA work inside the
enterprise. [dave (at) ixdg (dot) org]
</sidebar>

Thanx Nico for your point of view. I can see what your saying as a possible
scenario as well. I do think that Adobe knows what it bought.

-- dave

20 Apr 2005 - 1:43am
Jerry John
2004

hey Jared,

i'm sorry, but i really think the research that your talking about was done
some time back coz the way i seen it; it happens all over the place (at
least with expert users i've interfaces with); this is not based on a
research but personal observations done when some preliminary user study as
part of a personal report; the places i've seen this happen are at Desktop
Publishers in parts of Bangalore city ...

and about - customizing personal spaces - well i do agree with u; (1)ppl do
love the fact that their options which opens up in small windows are fluid
in nature and (2) the power of the "Tab key"; Hit the key and Walla; all
options, tool, gone ... like magic .. now this happens with both, adobe and
macromedia alike ...(more specifically Photoshop and flash) ....

on the other hand when using Macromedia Dreamweaver, the first option while
installing the software (... if designer or developer) is quite something;
now somebody needs to do some research to check how many people actually opt
of the "developer" console...

- jerry

-----Original Message-----
From: Jared M. Spool [mailto:jspool at uie.com]
Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2005 7:20 PM
To: Jerry John
Cc: IxDG Discussion
Subject: RE: [ID Discuss] Adobe takes over Macromedia

Hi Jerry,

I've seen others who do similar things (such as creating Emacs macros that
simulate VIM commands), but it's rare and shows (1) an unusual talent for
designing the space around you and (b) the harsh reality of not having
everything they need in a single tool.

Most people who master these tools don't bring the commands from one into
the other or really customize their environment. At least, that's what our
research has shown.

Jared

At 08:12 AM 4/19/2005, you wrote:

> >...Mastery of these tools comes with a high price. Mastery of more than
one
> >tool is an even higher price, often because much of mastery is contained
in
> >kinesthetic memory ("finger macros") and other cognitive shortcuts that
> >make it hard to overcome. Reprogramming ones brain for a new tool, after
a
> >previous one has been mastered, is extremely difficult.
>
>Jared
>
>i'm probably talking out of context here - but both adobe and macromedia
>have capability of configuring the tool palette - you can import entire
>shortcuts scripts from adobe into macromedia and visa versa - this is what
>i do coz i need to use both tool do get my work done -
>
>- jerry
>
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From:
>discuss-interactiondesigners.com-bounces at lists.interactiondesigners.com
>[mailto:discuss-interactiondesigners.com-bounces at lists.interactiondesign
>ers.com]On Behalf Of Jared M. Spool
>Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2005 5:27 PM
>To: Donna Fritzsche
>Cc: IxDG Discussion
>Subject: Re: [ID Discuss] Adobe takes over Macromedia
>
>
>[Please voluntarily trim replies to include only relevant quoted material.]
>
>At 05:49 AM 4/19/2005, Donna Fritzsche wrote:
>
>
> >>Having studied how designers learn and use their tools (and how other
> >>folks, like programmers learn and use theirs), I can tell you that there
> >>is a huge loyalty to learning tools. A programmer investing in Emacs
will
> >>find everything else to be much harder, not because it actually is
> >>harder, but because of the investment they've made and the mastery
>achieved.
> >
> >I think there is some truth to your statement (and I love emacs!), but I
> >learned Freehand after Illustrator. In this case, I think there is some
> >legitimate difference in mental models, approach, etc. Which I think also
> >explains why Todd didn' t take to it and I did (for instance,)
>
>Oh, don't get me wrong. I'm not suggesting that people *never* switch. I'm
>just saying that when people become invested in an interface, the "cost" of
>switching increases. When we've found users that *have* switched, their new
>home often comes with an even higher investment, making the costs of a
>subsequent switch even more unlikely.
>
>
>
>Jared M. Spool
>User Interface Engineering
>http://www.uie.com jspool at uie.com
>
>UI10 Anniversery Gift: Limited Edition iPod!
>See details at http://www.uiconf.com
>
>_______________________________________________
>Welcome to the Interaction Design Group!
>To post to this list ....... discuss at ixdg.org
>(Un)Subscription Options ... http://discuss.ixdg.org/
>Announcements List ......... http://subscribe-announce.ixdg.org/
>Questions .................. lists at ixdg.org
>Home ....................... http://ixdg.org/

Jared M. Spool, Founding Principal
User Interface Engineering
4 Lookout Lane, Unit 4d
Middleton, MA 01949
978 777-9123
jspool at uie.com
http://www.uie.com

20 Apr 2005 - 11:47am
Tom George
2004

On Apr 19, 2005, at 08:51 PM, David Heller wrote:

> I have observed that among the corporate, conservative set, Flash has
> become
> an anathema. You just say it and you get shown the door. I'm being a
> tad
> overstated, but for the most part, Flash and the Enterprise do not
> belong. I
> know someone on this list is doing good work to make that not true,
> but that
> is the exception and unfortunately that exception can't be publicized
> widely
> due to the nature of enterprise work in general.

Wow. Do we ever share your pain. In fact just about anyone doing Flash
in the enterprise cannot publicize what they're doing because in
general, companies do not like to see screen shots of their proprietary
apps floating around the internet.

> A hope that I have is that Adobe FlashPDF will bring a depiction of
> maturity
> to the the Flash brand, a sense of security, and most importantly a
> valuable
> developer base that has been hard to convert from the .NET,
> Java/Eclipse
> universe.

I am a firm believer/hoper that the Adobe acquisition of Macromedia
will put the Flash plug-in in the same league as Acrobat. In recent
memory, who would be chastised for publishing a PDF on a web site? But
it requires a plug-in, no? All the same security issues right? But
Adobe is trusted, and, I guess Macromedia is not. I suppose your PDF
cannot raid your hard drive ... but ... well. Sigh.

> Adobe doesn't have any relationship with these developers currently,
> but
> then again they don't have relationships with any developers and they
> can
> work to develop a co-branded development environment between Flash and
> PDF
> (as C|Net called it the web app is the real play here) and PDF can get
> a
> real application front-end, and Flash can get some real developers who
> want
> to engineer for it in the Enterprise environment.

Where do we sign up?

> <sidebar>
> BTW, I would love to talk to anyone who is doing any RIA work inside
> the
> enterprise. [dave (at) ixdg (dot) org]
> </sidebar>
>

And all this being said, we have built Flash UI for 6 enterprise
applications in the last year and a half comprising nearly 200 separate
screens deployed at 4 banks (1 in Canada, 3 in the U.S.), one govt.
ministry, and a beverage manufacturing company (can you say NDA with
teeth?). With the banks these apps are typically getting tested in the
test branches or in test centers. Despite growling, incredulity, and
some flat-out refusals, after we get an open discussion about the
issues (security, our firewall won't allow it, the boss hates Flash, it
won't look like our other applications, we can't maintain Flash, we
only have OS/2 in our branches) we can usually get to a point where
there are 1 or 2 substantive issues that need to be demonstrably
addressed.

In one case, the IT dept. consulted their own web style guide and found
it specifically allowed the use of Flash 5. Everyone looked around the
table and then said, well can you do it in Flash 5 ... and we said ...
"[gulp] ahhh Yes!". And we did. At one point we were looking around for
an OS/2 Flash player (the client relented when they realized by the
time the app would be in production there would be branch wide upgrade
in place).

What was very gratifying in one case is that the solution architect
said that he could see a (qualified) benefit of using Flash as the
presentation layer on a service oriented architecture because it
reduced the complexity of what he had to build and it meant the right
people were focused on the right problems. I.e. Flash designers and
developers were building interaction and Java developers were building
business logic.

Anyway, we do this because we really believe that in the situations
that we're being asked to participate, Flash will allow us to build the
best user experience. And it's pretty clear from our web site and sales
presentations that if you involve us, it's because you need more than
just standard data entry forms. So, I don't want to apologize too much
for being a zealot. But that's sort of what it takes right now. (That
being said, my Microsoft Avalon pre-alpha-or-whatever- install disk
sits on my desk waiting).

-Tom

--

Tom George
DesignAxiom Ltd.

http://www.designaxiom.com
Phone: 416-703-6737 x224

23 Apr 2005 - 9:42am
Fredrik Matheson
2005

These mergers have a strange way of producing unforeseen results. Who
would have thought that then-dinky Macromedia (remember the "Silver
Surfer" logo pet character?) would come to dominate the market for web
tools?

I'm not going to add any ruminations on
who-will-do-what-to-whom-and-how, but I will confess to a sneaky
feeling that this merger will:

1. open the door for someone else to (for example) release a
super-duper ajax RIA builder
2. cause enough internal havoc to delay Creative Suite 3, Flash 8 and so on
3. threaten the macromedia user community, who are used to a certain
level of openness and willingness to discuss, a relationship they
don't have with Adobe
4. not be very useful for the former Allaire people, who probably just
want to get on with work and strengthen ColdFusion, Flex, etc.
5. Probably create a new company from the leftover products (Freehand,
Pagemaker, GoLive, FlashPaper.) Who owns the name "Aldus" these days?

But it'll be interesting to see the matter unfold.

Fredrik Matheson
www.geoloq.us/blog

28 Apr 2005 - 3:06am
Fredrik Matheson
2005

But what that means, then, is that there is an opportunity lurking for
an (open-source?) "Flash paper" application. Something far lighter
than pdfs and faster to open, easy to view on web pages, but perhaps
needing a viewer.

On the other hand: in the business of print, pdfs are a near-universal
standard. Easy to export, read, download etc and everything stays in
its appointed place. And just about everyone has the reader installed.

Jonathan: what, in your opinion, makes Flash paper a PDF-killer from a
user's point of view? And what about in the document workflow p.o.v?

Btw I agree that flash paper from a more "interactive" (forms, guides,
etc) standpoint scores plenty of points.

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