Legal Questions for a possible conference panel on Intellectual property

7 Jun 2008 - 5:55am
6 years ago
3 replies
642 reads
Chauncey Wilson
2007

Hi,

This is a lively discussion. I'm on the CHI2009 conference committee
for usability and user experience and I'm proposing a panel with IP
lawyers to discuss patents and other issues that are relevant to
designers and usability practitioners. Aside from the issue of
patents, I would be curious what other legal questions this group has
beyond the debate about patents. For example, there are many
copyright issues like the use of thumbnail images in products and for
usability practitioners there are issues around the use of sweepstakes
as incentives for questionnaires. There are issues around the rights
of artists and visual designers (strong in Europe anda few few states
in the USA) and issues with those complex NDAs we ask people to sign.
What about fair use?

So, I can't promise that the legal panel will get accepted (safe
harbor statement ), but I think that there are many issues and
controversies that would be of interest so if you want to post legal
questions here or send them to me offline, that would be great. I'll
use those to help generate the proposal with some savvy IP lawyers who
work in software.

Is there a date for an IxDA conference? I would be happy to organize
something for that as well. Patent law is changing and copyright is
still catching up with electronic media and every now and then
questions pop up about the legality of non-competes (not allowed in
CA, but in most other states they are legal for up to 2 years).

Thanks,
Chauncey
On Fri, Jun 6, 2008 at 10:51 PM, Andrei Herasimchuk
<andrei at involutionstudios.com> wrote:
>
> On Jun 6, 2008, at 6:23 PM, Kontra wrote:
>
>>> Are the people who are trying to maintain plausible deniability also
>>> going to
>>> claim that they never visit a news site?
>>
>> Or use a PC at a library? Or a friend's house? Or AOL or some other
>> proxy server? Or prove in the negative that they didn't access what's
>> otherwise publicly available? Etc.
>
> I've got an idea... why don't those of you who seem to not believe the very
> credible sources on this list (myself, Dan, Jared, Chauncey, Katie, Josh,
> etc) who are telling you it's a real issue do yourselves a favor and go talk
> to an IP or patent lawyer and let them explain it to you. It appears some of
> you obviously don't believe us, so please go discuss it with someone else
> who has a law degree so we stop wasting your and our time trying to tell you
> something those same people with law degrees already told us.
>
> --
> Andrei Herasimchuk
>
> Principal, Involution Studios
> innovating the digital world
>
> e. andrei at involutionstudios.com
> c. +1 408 306 6422
>
> ________________________________________________________________
> Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)!
> To post to this list ....... discuss at ixda.org
> Unsubscribe ................ http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe
> List Guidelines ............ http://www.ixda.org/guidelines
> List Help .................. http://www.ixda.org/help
>

Comments

8 Jun 2008 - 3:39pm
Duane Degler
2007

Chauncey,

Sounds like a great idea. I hope you would be able to get international
representation, because even with the world treaties around there are many
nuances to IP in different countries and regions of the world.

A stray collection of thoughts it would be interesting to hear more about:
- the role of provenance and prior art (particularly in our transient Web
world)
- panelists' experience: whether precedent law tends to hold sway when
fights break out
- whether "complying with rights is your problem" and
"we own everything you post" clauses really stand up
(frequently part of social/Web 2.0 terms of use)
- is 'fair use' at risk, expanding, or just alive and well?
- data rights, with the growing use of mashups, scraping, and 'free' data
sources
- rights toward components of a page/design, as different from fully
composed work
- current interpretations of "work for hire"

If you do get something organized for IxDA conf, I would love to see a straw
poll for how many people think actively about IP as part of their working
practices - is it arcane, or a conscious reality?

Duane Degler

> -----Original Message-----
> Message: 34
> Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2008 06:55:25 -0400
> From: "Chauncey Wilson" <chauncey.wilson at gmail.com>
> Subject: [IxDA Discuss] Legal Questions for a possible conference
> panel on Intellectual property
> To: "Andrei Herasimchuk" <andrei at involutionstudios.com>
> Cc: IxDA Discuss <discuss at ixda.org>
> Message-ID:
> <cdf6cbd50806070355j1093c1f2pa0fa968ef602bdce at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
> Hi,
>
> This is a lively discussion. I'm on the CHI2009 conference committee
> for usability and user experience and I'm proposing a panel with IP
> lawyers to discuss patents and other issues that are relevant to
> designers and usability practitioners. Aside from the issue of
> patents, I would be curious what other legal questions this group has
> beyond the debate about patents. For example, there are many
> copyright issues like the use of thumbnail images in products and for
> usability practitioners there are issues around the use of sweepstakes
> as incentives for questionnaires. There are issues around the rights
> of artists and visual designers (strong in Europe anda few few states
> in the USA) and issues with those complex NDAs we ask people to sign.
> What about fair use?
>
> So, I can't promise that the legal panel will get accepted (safe
> harbor statement ), but I think that there are many issues and
> controversies that would be of interest so if you want to post legal
> questions here or send them to me offline, that would be great. I'll
> use those to help generate the proposal with some savvy IP lawyers who
> work in software.
>
> Is there a date for an IxDA conference? I would be happy to organize
> something for that as well. Patent law is changing and copyright is
> still catching up with electronic media and every now and then
> questions pop up about the legality of non-competes (not allowed in
> CA, but in most other states they are legal for up to 2 years).
>
> Thanks,
> Chauncey

8 Jun 2008 - 3:46pm
Chauncey Wilson
2007

Thanks Duane,

Good topics and I'm trying to get hold of an international attorney on
this. for example, recruiting rules in Germany are fairly strict and
Canada has special rules about what can be kept in databases on
individuals. The rules for remote testing could get pretty complex
with international non-disclosures and privacy rules. the issue of
who has copyright to postings on social sites is quite an interesting
one. Work for hire can get complicated with artistic rights (in a few
states in the USA and much more in force outside the USA).

If anyone knows a good IP attorney from outside the USA who has some
familiarity with interaction design and usability please send his/her
contact information around.

Thanks for the list of ideas.

Chauncey

On Sun, Jun 8, 2008 at 4:39 PM, Duane Degler <ddegler at ipgems.com> wrote:
> Chauncey,
>
> Sounds like a great idea. I hope you would be able to get international
> representation, because even with the world treaties around there are many
> nuances to IP in different countries and regions of the world.
>
> A stray collection of thoughts it would be interesting to hear more about:
> - the role of provenance and prior art (particularly in our transient Web
> world)
> - panelists' experience: whether precedent law tends to hold sway when
> fights break out
> - whether "complying with rights is your problem" and
> "we own everything you post" clauses really stand up
> (frequently part of social/Web 2.0 terms of use)
> - is 'fair use' at risk, expanding, or just alive and well?
> - data rights, with the growing use of mashups, scraping, and 'free' data
> sources
> - rights toward components of a page/design, as different from fully
> composed work
> - current interpretations of "work for hire"
>
> If you do get something organized for IxDA conf, I would love to see a straw
> poll for how many people think actively about IP as part of their working
> practices - is it arcane, or a conscious reality?
>
> Duane Degler
>
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> Message: 34
>> Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2008 06:55:25 -0400
>> From: "Chauncey Wilson" <chauncey.wilson at gmail.com>
>> Subject: [IxDA Discuss] Legal Questions for a possible conference
>> panel on Intellectual property
>> To: "Andrei Herasimchuk" <andrei at involutionstudios.com>
>> Cc: IxDA Discuss <discuss at ixda.org>
>> Message-ID:
>> <cdf6cbd50806070355j1093c1f2pa0fa968ef602bdce at mail.gmail.com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>>
>> Hi,
>>
>> This is a lively discussion. I'm on the CHI2009 conference committee
>> for usability and user experience and I'm proposing a panel with IP
>> lawyers to discuss patents and other issues that are relevant to
>> designers and usability practitioners. Aside from the issue of
>> patents, I would be curious what other legal questions this group has
>> beyond the debate about patents. For example, there are many
>> copyright issues like the use of thumbnail images in products and for
>> usability practitioners there are issues around the use of sweepstakes
>> as incentives for questionnaires. There are issues around the rights
>> of artists and visual designers (strong in Europe anda few few states
>> in the USA) and issues with those complex NDAs we ask people to sign.
>> What about fair use?
>>
>> So, I can't promise that the legal panel will get accepted (safe
>> harbor statement ), but I think that there are many issues and
>> controversies that would be of interest so if you want to post legal
>> questions here or send them to me offline, that would be great. I'll
>> use those to help generate the proposal with some savvy IP lawyers who
>> work in software.
>>
>> Is there a date for an IxDA conference? I would be happy to organize
>> something for that as well. Patent law is changing and copyright is
>> still catching up with electronic media and every now and then
>> questions pop up about the legality of non-competes (not allowed in
>> CA, but in most other states they are legal for up to 2 years).
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Chauncey
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________
> Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)!
> To post to this list ....... discuss at ixda.org
> Unsubscribe ................ http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe
> List Guidelines ............ http://www.ixda.org/guidelines
> List Help .................. http://www.ixda.org/help
>

8 Jun 2008 - 4:47pm
Kontra
2007

> A stray collection of thoughts

Missing in action is the counter-argument.

If as a 'designer' one's been relegated to rearranging buttons on a
page, this won't be of any consequence, but if one's directly involved
in *system* design in a strategic context, then playing ostrich is no
help.

Innovation requires *challenging* established practices, not just in
technology but also in marketing, XP design, pricing, distribution,
etc. Usually in combination. IP issues are part and parcel of this
combination and must be addressed as opposed to avoided.

Playing ostrich is no guarantee that one won't be sued. At the end of
the day, as a designer, one has to either design around a patent or
against it, either case requiring knowledge of it. Many companies
actually build products and platforms by successfully challenging
existing patents, invalidating them, reducing their reach and,
sometimes, licensing them.

Unless one's involved in specific cases of reverse engineering,
avoidance of patent knowledge is really not very smart. Innovative
products are not designed by starting with a focus on patent knowledge
avoidance.

--
Kontra
http://counternotions.com

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