TiddlyWiki

27 Sep 2004 - 4:57pm
9 years ago
14 replies
3801 reads
Listera
2004

TiddlyWiki: a reusable non-linear personal web notebook.

<http://www.tiddlywiki.com/>

It's a mouthful but what do you think of the interface/flow?

----
Ziya

Any problem that requires walking on water
as a solution is a problem ill-stated.

Comments

28 Sep 2004 - 4:11am
Martyn Jones BSc
2004

Ziya wrote:
> <http://www.tiddlywiki.com/>
> It's a mouthful but what do you think of the interface/flow?

Always nice to see something a little different.

Not sure about the use of the word 'link' to remove other 'tiddlers'. Also,
if your 'tiddlers' were fairly long, might be nice to make available a
single click interaction which closes all previously loaded 'tiddlers'
before loading the most recently selected.

I can see it's edit mode appearing within a Website content management
system (CMS). Most CMSs I see provide a fairly conceptual view of a
Website, requiring the using to fill out forms. Often the user would have
to Submit the form then either click a Site / Page Preview button, or go and
see the changes on the live site. Would be nice to see a CMS, which allows
you to see a Run-Time version of the live site and to make changes as
TiddlyWiki allows.

Martyn

----------------------
Martyn Jones BSc
Interaction Designer
Kode Digital Ltd.
----------------------

28 Sep 2004 - 6:23am
Petteri Hiisilä
2004

Listera wrote:

> [Please voluntarily trim replies to include only relevant quoted material.]
>
> TiddlyWiki: a reusable non-linear personal web notebook.
>
> <http://www.tiddlywiki.com/>
>
> It's a mouthful but what do you think of the interface/flow?
>

Well, that's a pretty damn interesting piece of software. If *that's*
easily possible within web standards, we shouldn't be far away from
implementing drag&drop and other useful idioms inside a plain web page.
I love that "click&open" animation and double-click editing.

--> I'm getting more and more confident that interaction designers
should put more demands on using web browser as a versatile thin client.
Gmail proves it. TiddlyWiki proves it. The webmail service developed by
my team proves it. It can be done! Developers can already do it, if we
just know what to demand. No need to wait.

The result? No installation, no weird-looking Java Swing widgets, less
need for caching, massive distributed computation, more visual web
interaction, etc. etc.

Distributed computation? Well, yes. The (web) server just "pukes" the
data into the browser, which uses dynamic techniques to filter, reuse
and compute with it. Without any plugins. The data remains on server,
which means that the data is portable.

This is not even a browser revolution. Forget the browser. But those
techniques enable a whole lot of open roads to discover. TiddlyWiki is
an exciting example of pushing the technical limits bounds.

As an interaction designer that gives me peace of mind: If I can design
it, it's also possible to implement it. Thus, I can forget pushing the
technology limits (the conversation in my head: "is this possible?"
"yes" "how about this?" "yes" "and this" "yes") and concentrate on
revolutionary interaction design. Now isn't THAT nice end goal for any
designer?

No, we're not there yet. Not even close. But we're moving fast.

***

The flow of the TiddlyWiki sucks. I tried to read some articles, and
they keep jumping up and down the page. It won't even scroll me to the
opened article automatically. But I believe most of the interaction/flow
problems would be easy to fix.

It seems to be optimized for quick editing. Not quick reading. Yet.

Best,
Petteri

--
Petteri Hiisilä
Palveluarkkitehti / Interaction Designer /
Alma Media Interactive Oy / NWS /
+358505050123 / petteri.hiisila at almamedia.fi

"I was told there's a miracle for each day that I try"
- John Petrucci

28 Sep 2004 - 1:27pm
Listera
2004

Petteri Hiisilä:

> If *that's* easily possible within web standards, we shouldn't be far away
> from implementing drag&drop and other useful idioms inside a plain web page.

We're not.

Some people have noticed that the last exciting thing that happened to IE
was back in 1952 and decided to do something about it. So the notion of a
"canvas" on an HTML page where you can draw and animate stuff to a degree
that could rival a desktop or Flash app is born.

Browser Wars 2004: The Industry Makes An End Run Around Internet Explorer.
<http://homepage.mac.com/jhobbs/essays/>

Browser rival to ActiveX in the offing
<http://www.techworld.com/applications/news/index.cfm?newsid=1856>

Apple's take on this is Dashboard, which the Safari developer Hyatt is
working on:

Dave Hyatt's Surfin' Safari:
<http://weblogs.mozillazine.org/hyatt/archives/2004_07.html>

Web Hypertext Application Technology (WHAT-WG)
<http://www.whatwg.org/>

Chris Hand:

> Then again, maybe I've been spending too much time recently
> dreaming about how much better OSX's Stickies could be (e.g.
> automatic aging/colour change of notes, auto-archiving as
> notes get old and "fall off the wall" etc.)

Within the next 18 months.

Dashboard
<http://www.apple.com/macosx/tiger/dashboard.html>
Dashboard-QTV
<http://www.apple.com/macosx/tiger/theater/dashboard.html>

ETA for Dashboard is H1 05 and for Mozilla via Firefox is Q4 04.
We already have Gmail and Blogger (and even the rumors of a Google web
browser with a lot of JavaScript goodness).
(One of these days, Macromedia might even revamp the text rendering engine
in Flash :-)

The reason I'm citing all this stuff is that just when you think the web
browser/HTML/HTTP is dead (Hi, Dave) out pops something interesting. And now
a lot of infrastructure is being put into place to make stuff like
TiddlyWiki easier to happen.

----
Ziya

Heterogeneity happens.

28 Sep 2004 - 2:01pm
Petteri Hiisilä
2004

> The reason I'm citing all this stuff is that just when you think the web
> browser/HTML/HTTP is dead (Hi, Dave) out pops something interesting. And now
> a lot of infrastructure is being put into place to make stuff like
> TiddlyWiki easier to happen.

Yeah,

You know what? Apple might seriously kick Microsoft's ass within a year
or two.

From end-user's point of view, the Longhorn seems to be the same old
stuff. Apple seems to be nothing but new.

While Microsoft is busy inventing new problems for us humans, Apple is
quickly solving the old ones.

When WinFS was dropped from initial Longhorn relese, I lost my hope with
the next Windows. It has been essentially the same since W95. That was
ten years ago! The only big progress has been that today's Windows is
less unstable!

Longhorn is "ready" somewhere around 2006. With WinFS somewhere around 2007.

Tiger promises to ship before next summer (winter for mates :).

Now that Bill Gates is running the Microsoft product development,
there's essentially no way that any interaction designer could override
his opinions. And Gates is _not_ an interaction designer. He's an inmate
of an asylum created by himself.

I encourage Gates to step down and let someone who's honestly interested
in human needs to run the product development for a while. That would be
a very very smart move for the future of Microsoft.

Please let me stress that I don't own Apple, except an iPod. And I love
it. I've never had an Apple computer. Just C64, Amiga and lots of PC's.
But as we speak, the G5 with Tiger seems to be a damn pleasing option to
move to.

I'll just have this Windows XP for games. If I have to.

http://www.apple.com/imac/
http://www.apple.com/macosx/tiger/

Best,
Petteri

--
Petteri Hiisilä
Palveluarkkitehti / Interaction Designer /
Alma Media Interactive Oy / NWS /
+358505050123 / petteri.hiisila at almamedia.fi

"The unbroken spirit
Obscured and disquiet
Finds clearness this trial demands"
- Dream Theater

28 Sep 2004 - 2:39pm
Cristian Cheran
2004

> You know what?
> Apple might seriously kick Microsoft's ass within a year
or two.
> Please let me stress that I don't own Apple, except an iPod.
> And I love it. I've never had an Apple computer.

I am in the same mindset. Especially after I read Norman's "Emotional
Design" I realized how much better Apple is in the User Experience
area. Now I feel that owning a Mac and spending a few hours weekly is
a must for any serious interaction designer (even more important than
playing the games)

Apple seemed lost since MS took over the market, but their chance now
is the celebrated convergence: they are the most qualified to deliver
Media Centers to the living room. Yes, I know they are not ready for
that (at least in TiVo-like time-shifting area) and I know that the
"legacy" design applications will be the ones to keep them alive for
the next years, but think about their amazing success with iPod:
anything else seems like an inferior clone. So I am quite confident
their Media Center will score the same- it won't be that hard because
Windows Media Center is half-baked.

28 Sep 2004 - 5:17pm
Listera
2004

Petteri Hiisilä:

> Apple might seriously kick Microsoft's ass within a year
> or two.

Well, I don't know about that. Apple would first have to get on an airplane
to fly to Redmond, but chances are, they can't:

Microsoft server crash nearly causes 800-plane pile-up

A major breakdown in Southern California's air traffic control system last
week was partly due to a "design anomaly" in the way Microsoft Windows
servers were integrated into the system, according to a report in the Los
Angeles Times.

The failure was ultimately down to a combination of human error and a design
glitch in the Windows servers brought in over the past three years to
replace the radio system's original Unix servers, according to the FAA.

The servers are timed to shut down after 49.7 days of use in order to
prevent a data overload, a union official told the LA Times. To avoid this
automatic shutdown, technicians are required to restart the system manually
every 30 days. An improperly trained employee failed to reset the system,
leading it to shut down without warning, the official said.

<http://www.techworld.com/opsys/news/index.cfm?NewsID=2275>

That's some computer-homo sapien interaction misalignment.:-)

On a positive note, I'm seeing fewer "Windows server down..." notices
flashing on airport display monitors.

Ziya
Nullius in Verba

29 Sep 2004 - 3:18am
Dan Zlotnikov
2004

It's possible, and I wish the site I was going to use as an example
was still up... Sadly, it isn't, so I hope you'll take my word for it.
The page consisted of numerous moveable and resizeable "windows," able
to handle being minimized and closed. The best part was that the
author used nothing other than DHTML to produce the effect, though I'm
stumped as to the how.

If you know of any other sites that have done this, I'd love to see them!

Dan
WatCHI
http://www.acm.org/chapters/watchi

>
> Well, that's a pretty damn interesting piece of software. If *that's*
> easily possible within web standards, we shouldn't be far away from
> implementing drag&drop and other useful idioms inside a plain web page.
> I love that "click&open" animation and double-click editing.
>
<snip>

> It seems to be optimized for quick editing. Not quick reading. Yet.
>
> Best,
> Petteri

29 Sep 2004 - 8:16am
Kartik Patel
2004

A site that might give you some insight as to how that effect was
produced is http://www.dhtmlcentral.com/. It also has windows setup on
it's front page.

> The best part was that the
> author used nothing other than DHTML to produce the effect, though I'm
> stumped as to the how.
>
> If you know of any other sites that have done this, I'd love to see them

--
Kartik Patel
tikbmc at gmail.com

29 Sep 2004 - 4:09pm
Florian Weber
2004

> I can see it's edit mode appearing within a Website content management
> system (CMS). Most CMSs I see provide a fairly conceptual view of a
> Website, requiring the using to fill out forms. Often the user would
> have
> to Submit the form then either click a Site / Page Preview button, or
> go and
> see the changes on the live site. Would be nice to see a CMS, which
> allows
> you to see a Run-Time version of the live site and to make changes as
> TiddlyWiki allows.

thats exactly what i've been dealing with for the last couple of weeks.

i would have loved to have something like inline-editing of the pages
and i think it works well for a lot of cases. but the problem is when
the
display on the webpage requires less space/must be smaller than
the input element to edit it.

does anybody have some experience/solutions in this field?

29 Sep 2004 - 5:05pm
Petteri Hiisilä
2004

Florian Weber wrote:

> and i think it works well for a lot of cases. but the problem is when the
> display on the webpage requires less space/must be smaller than
> the input element to edit it.
>
> does anybody have some experience/solutions in this field?

Inline editing ... maybe. We have a little different problem, hence a
different solution too.

We've got a nice CMS with an editor that understands styles etc.

Our intranet for saving technical documents is going to be built with
that. Just normal hierarchical web, but whenever you see something to
edit, you click the Edit button. The Java-based editor opens instantly.
Press save, and you'll see the results in the page. Visitors don't see
the Edit button. Only our staff does.

It's essentially the same idea as in Wiki, but this time the editing
happens in a "real" editor, not in a clumsy web textbox. You can apply
styles, mark headlines, bold text, copy&paste between docs. Without
having to use any markup language. The internal document format is XML,
and the CMS can output many formats. We happen to use HTML.

It will also have an ability to print good-looking PDF files form
selected articles. They use the same style information, but the PDF
output is optimized for paper, not for screen. It's complete with table
of contents etc.

But the most important thing is that the textbox edit is replaced by a
"real" editor. That way we don't lose the advantage that instant editing
gives us, but we gain when we can abandon the markup language.

The web tree itself is built inside the CMS tree editor. But that
editing happens more rarely than updating a single document.

This system happens to be for sale. If you're interested, please contact
me, and I'll forward you to someone who know more. We run two
newspapers, four huge websites and one TV station with the CMS. It is
quite versatile, can handle pics, stories, videos, sounds etc. It's
called Multinews 3.0.

Best,
Petteri

--
Petteri Hiisilä
Palveluarkkitehti / Interaction Designer /
Alma Media Interactive Oy / NWS /
+358505050123 / petteri.hiisila at almamedia.fi

"The unbroken spirit
Obscured and disquiet
Finds clearness this trial demands"
- Dream Theater

30 Sep 2004 - 5:06am
Florian Weber
2004

> Our intranet for saving technical documents is going to be built with
> that. Just normal hierarchical web, but whenever you see something to
> edit, you click the Edit button. The Java-based editor opens
> instantly. Press save, and you'll see the results in the page.
> Visitors don't see the Edit button. Only our staff does.
>
> It's essentially the same idea as in Wiki, but this time the editing
> happens in a "real" editor, not in a clumsy web textbox. You can apply
> styles, mark headlines, bold text, copy&paste between docs. Without
> having to use any markup language. The internal document format is
> XML, and the CMS can output many formats. We happen to use HTML.
>
> It will also have an ability to print good-looking PDF files form
> selected articles. They use the same style information, but the PDF
> output is optimized for paper, not for screen. It's complete with
> table of contents etc.
>
> But the most important thing is that the textbox edit is replaced by a
> "real" editor. That way we don't lose the advantage that instant
> editing gives us, but we gain when we can abandon the markup language.
>
> The web tree itself is built inside the CMS tree editor. But that
> editing happens more rarely than updating a single document.
>
> This system happens to be for sale. If you're interested, please
> contact me, and I'll forward you to someone who know more. We run two
> newspapers, four huge websites and one TV station with the CMS. It is
> quite versatile, can handle pics, stories, videos, sounds etc. It's
> called Multinews 3.0.

sounds very interesting! do you have any screenshots of the system?

how fine-grained is the edit functionality does every headline,
copytext section,
photo, etc have a edit button?

30 Sep 2004 - 7:11am
Petteri Hiisilä
2004

>> It's called Multinews 3.0.
>
> sounds very interesting! do you have any screenshots of the system?

I'll send you the PDF. There's no web brochure.

> how fine-grained is the edit functionality does every headline, copytext
> section, photo, etc have a edit button?

You edit the whole article and everything inside it. Our end users
(journalists & technical writers) like to do it that way.

1. Read the web like customers do
2. See something to change
3. Click edit
4. Edit
5. Click save

The article is inside navigation. Journalists and developers edit the
content. Information architects and webmasters edit the navigation, ads
and other content. Adding new articles = click.

There's no limits to information architecture. The same article can be
published in web, paper, teletext, SMS, MMS and interactive/digital tv.

Like I said, the articles are stored as XML files. That's way outputting
them to various formats is relatively quick and simple. It understands
what's a headline, ingress, person, quote etc. and can treat the output
accordingly.

This is not MS FrontPage! We don't store broken HTML. We store clean
XML. Journalists just see it as headlines, people, pictures, text,
movies etc. when they edit it.

But I don't want to do anymore sales talk in this public list. I'm not
even a salesman! I'm a designer. I'll send you the PDF. Some other
people have asked for it too :)

Best,
Petteri

--
Petteri Hiisilä
Palveluarkkitehti / Interaction Designer /
Alma Media Interactive Oy / NWS /
+358505050123 / petteri.hiisila at almamedia.fi

"I was told there's a miracle for each day that I try"
- John Petrucci

30 Sep 2004 - 7:39am
Petteri Hiisilä
2004

> But I don't want to do anymore sales talk in this public list. I'm not
> even a salesman! I'm a designer. I'll send you the PDF. Some other
> people have asked for it too :)

Yeah, I'll send it to you all!

My email address is petteri.hiisila at almamedia.fi. Please send the
request directly there. Let's try to keep this list free from sales talk :)

Best,
Petteri

--
Petteri Hiisilä
Palveluarkkitehti / Interaction Designer /
Alma Media Interactive Oy / NWS /
+358505050123 / petteri.hiisila at almamedia.fi

"The unbroken spirit
Obscured and disquiet
Finds clearness this trial demands"
- Dream Theater

30 Sep 2004 - 7:48am
Petteri Hiisilä
2004

Petteri Hiisilä wrote:

> [Please voluntarily trim replies to include only relevant quoted material.]
>
>> But I don't want to do anymore sales talk in this public list. I'm not
>> even a salesman! I'm a designer. I'll send you the PDF. Some other
>> people have asked for it too :)
>
> Yeah, I'll send it to you all!
>

Thanks, Mozilla Thunderbird. You just made me feel stoopid as a boot.

I've had several requests for the PDF, but in Thunderbird they appear
within this this folder and as answers to this thread.

Hence, it looks like three people suddenly sent the request directly to
the public list. Which they didn't.

No, I'm not going the send the PDF to the whole list. I beg your pardon,
and try to learn from my mistakes, again.

- Petteri

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