Who would you like to see in a Debate?

12 Mar 2008 - 8:02am
6 years ago
10 replies
634 reads
Patricia Garcia
2007

I found this from 37signals quite interesting about not being enough debate
at web conferences.

http://www.37signals.com/svn/posts/906-web-conferences-wheres-the-outrage

I wanted to have some fun with this, at the same time use it as opportunity
to expand my knowledge network by asking you guys here, who from the UX
community would you pit up against each other and why? They don't have to
be well known names, just someone with a blog that we can reference and see
their viewpoints. I read so many blogs and try to weed out who knows what
they are talking about and who is full of it. I like to hear opposing
views, it allows me the opportunity to decide for myself. One of the
reasons I love these boards for their opposing views on many topics.

So tell me, who would be in each corner? And no one answer "It depends",
just pick a dependency and go with it. :)

Comments

12 Mar 2008 - 8:24am
Grady Kelly
2007

I thought that there was quite a bit of debate here on this list. :o) ...
but I know what you mean ...

Grady

On Wed, Mar 12, 2008 at 7:02 AM, Patricia Garcia <pgarcia413 at earthlink.net>
wrote:

> I found this from 37signals quite interesting about not being enough
> debate
> at web conferences.
>
> http://www.37signals.com/svn/posts/906-web-conferences-wheres-the-outrage
>
> I wanted to have some fun with this, at the same time use it as
> opportunity
> to expand my knowledge network by asking you guys here, who from the UX
> community would you pit up against each other and why? They don't have to
> be well known names, just someone with a blog that we can reference and
> see
> their viewpoints. I read so many blogs and try to weed out who knows what
> they are talking about and who is full of it. I like to hear opposing
> views, it allows me the opportunity to decide for myself. One of the
> reasons I love these boards for their opposing views on many topics.
>
> So tell me, who would be in each corner? And no one answer "It depends",
> just pick a dependency and go with it. :)
> ________________________________________________________________
> Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)!
> To post to this list ....... discuss at ixda.org
> Unsubscribe ................ http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe
> List Guidelines ............ http://www.ixda.org/guidelines
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>

12 Mar 2008 - 8:48am
SemanticWill
2007

I would pay to watch a WWF smacksown between Neilson and Andrie H.

will evans
user experience architect
wkevans4 at gmail.com
617.281.1281

On Mar 12, 2008, at 9:24 AM, "Grady Kelly" <grady at simpledesign.org>
wrote:

> I thought that there was quite a bit of debate here on this
> list. :o) ...
> but I know what you mean ...
>
> Grady
>
> On Wed, Mar 12, 2008 at 7:02 AM, Patricia Garcia <pgarcia413 at earthlink.net
> >
> wrote:
>
>> I found this from 37signals quite interesting about not being enough
>> debate
>> at web conferences.
>>
>> http://www.37signals.com/svn/posts/906-web-conferences-wheres-the-outrage
>>
>> I wanted to have some fun with this, at the same time use it as
>> opportunity
>> to expand my knowledge network by asking you guys here, who from
>> the UX
>> community would you pit up against each other and why? They don't
>> have to
>> be well known names, just someone with a blog that we can reference
>> and
>> see
>> their viewpoints. I read so many blogs and try to weed out who
>> knows what
>> they are talking about and who is full of it. I like to hear
>> opposing
>> views, it allows me the opportunity to decide for myself. One of the
>> reasons I love these boards for their opposing views on many topics.
>>
>> So tell me, who would be in each corner? And no one answer "It
>> depends",
>> just pick a dependency and go with it. :)
>> ________________________________________________________________
>> Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)!
>> To post to this list ....... discuss at ixda.org
>> Unsubscribe ................ http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe
>> List Guidelines ............ http://www.ixda.org/guidelines
>> List Help .................. http://www.ixda.org/help
>>
> ________________________________________________________________
> Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)!
> To post to this list ....... discuss at ixda.org
> Unsubscribe ................ http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe
> List Guidelines ............ http://www.ixda.org/guidelines
> List Help .................. http://www.ixda.org/help

12 Mar 2008 - 8:50am
Dave Malouf
2005

Jason Fried vs. Me!
I think 37Signals' notions of "designing for self" are wrong
despite. Starting with "yourself" has led to what I would call the
disaster of design known as basecamp. We use it for IxDA ... why? b/c
there is nothing as good as cheap. That doesn't mean it IS good. it
isn't. it is horribly designed.

Ok, more on the community front:
Andrei H. vs. anyone. ;)
Seriously though Andrei and I could go at it on a few topics,
particularly around the place for code in design practice. I believe
he takes technology as a design requirement way too far.

Jared vs. others on the topic of is Usability more than evaluation. I
haven't seen it in practice and be "usability". of course this
could just be a semantic debate which is no fun, but I think he is
trying to say something that I just haven't understood yet.

Generalists vs. specialists
What is IxD? Why is it important to have a speciality vs. a
generalist vision of IxD?

I'm sure there are a ton more.

Oh! another for Andrei and possibly Jeff Howard: Does IxD have to
have a digital component?

-- dave

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
Posted from the new ixda.org
http://www.ixda.org/discuss?post=26981

12 Mar 2008 - 9:14am
SemanticWill
2007

Me versus Dan Saffer on why Silicone Valley is the last place a good IXD
would want to move to and work.

On Wed, 12 Mar 2008 06:50:15, David Malouf <dave at ixda.org> wrote:

> Jason Fried vs. Me!
> I think 37Signals' notions of "designing for self" are wrong
> despite. Starting with "yourself" has led to what I would call the
> disaster of design known as basecamp. We use it for IxDA ... why? b/c
> there is nothing as good as cheap. That doesn't mean it IS good. it
> isn't. it is horribly designed.
>
> Ok, more on the community front:
> Andrei H. vs. anyone. ;)
> Seriously though Andrei and I could go at it on a few topics,
> particularly around the place for code in design practice. I believe
> he takes technology as a design requirement way too far.
>
> Jared vs. others on the topic of is Usability more than evaluation. I
> haven't seen it in practice and be "usability". of course this
> could just be a semantic debate which is no fun, but I think he is
> trying to say something that I just haven't understood yet.
>
> Generalists vs. specialists
> What is IxD? Why is it important to have a speciality vs. a
> generalist vision of IxD?
>
> I'm sure there are a ton more.
>
> Oh! another for Andrei and possibly Jeff Howard: Does IxD have to
> have a digital component?
>
> -- dave
>
>
> . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
> Posted from the new ixda.org
> http://www.ixda.org/discuss?post=26981
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________
> Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)!
> To post to this list ....... discuss at ixda.org
> Unsubscribe ................ http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe
> List Guidelines ............ http://www.ixda.org/guidelines
> List Help .................. http://www.ixda.org/help
>

--
~ will

"No matter how beautiful,
no matter how cool your interface,
it would be better if there were less of it."
Alan Cooper
-
"Where you innovate, how you innovate,
and what you innovate are design problems"
-------------------------------------------------------
will evans
user experience architect
wkevans4 at gmail.com
-------------------------------------------------------

13 Mar 2008 - 11:51am
Dan Saffer
2003

On Mar 12, 2008, at 7:14 AM, W Evans wrote:

> Me versus Dan Saffer on why Silicone Valley is the last place a good
> IXD
> would want to move to and work.

Silicone Valley? Now THAT is a place I wouldn't mind working. ;)

Seriously, I don't work in SILICON Valley (I'm in SF and there is a
huge difference although we're only some 30 miles away), but you can
debate this with the several thousand IxDs who live and work there at
companies like Apple and Google. What companies are in your
neighborhood?

Dan

13 Mar 2008 - 6:04pm
Robert Hoekman, Jr.
2005

> Jason Fried vs. Me!

To have a real debate with Fried that the audience would buy, you'd have to
first substantiate a comparable level of success, else he'd crush you. Can
you do that?

I think 37Signals' notions of "designing for self" are wrong
> despite. Starting with "yourself" has led to what I would call the
> disaster of design known as basecamp.

Basecamp is hardly a disaster of design—it has a higher satisfaction rating
than any app I've ever heard about. Maybe you're just more comfortable with
something else.

-r-

13 Mar 2008 - 6:56pm
Dave Malouf
2005

On Thu, Mar 13, 2008 at 7:04 PM, Robert Hoekman, Jr. <robert at rhjr.net>
wrote:

>
> Jason Fried vs. Me!
>
>
> To have a real debate with Fried that the audience would buy, you'd have
> to first substantiate a comparable level of success, else he'd crush you.
> Can you do that?
>

Yes, the success we have at Motorola Enterprise Mobility. We NEVER design
for ourselves. We ONLY design for the customer. Our 2.5 Billion Dollars in
annual revenue and tremendous customer satisfaction go a long way to tell
that story.

Designing applications for you in the enterprise world doesn't make sense,
promoting it as an end solution for all design is irresponsible. Now I know
that he would come back and say, but we only say this is what works for us
so we do it. But that is not what you say when you write books, blogs, and
do conferences and speak on the topic. You are promoting a process and set
of tools that you believe are generalizable and this is my problem w/ it.

>
>
> I think 37Signals' notions of "designing for self" are wrong
> > despite. Starting with "yourself" has led to what I would call the
> > disaster of design known as basecamp.
>
>
> Basecamp is hardly a disaster of design—it has a higher satisfaction
> rating than any app I've ever heard about. Maybe you're just more
> comfortable with something else.
>

Really? I find that almost absurd. We have been dying to get off the tool
ever since we got on it b/c it fails us in almost every category of use.
It isn't good for task management b/c the milestone:task relationship is too
cumbersome
It doesn't have threading, so to use it for conversation is awkward.
Writeboard is subpar so we are constantly throwing in links to Google Docs,
but when we do use Writeboards the lack of integration always leads to
someone putting up the wrong link in the messages when they want to talk
about it.
There is no calendar so you can't add events. I.e. We want to have a call.
You have to create a milestone. A phone call is a milestone??? What?
You can't do scheduling.
The way that users are put into companies is inflexible and doesn't scale
over long periods of time as people change positions and roles and even
companies but remain related to projects.
You can't reply to messages via email, even though you get an alert via
email.

These to me are just SOME basic failings in the product. I have always found
the lauding of Basecamp so confusing. I've been using the tool deeply for 4
years now and for the life of me, the only appeal I see in it is that it is
not as bad as everyone else, but that criteria of success would lead one to
believe that to be successful at design means to be good enough.

That is soulless and leads to mediocrity. It also leads you very vulnerable.

-- dave

>
>
> -r-
>

--
David Malouf
http://synapticburn.com/
http://ixda.org/
http://motorola.com/

13 Mar 2008 - 7:16pm
Robert Hoekman, Jr.
2005

> > Basecamp is hardly a disaster of design—it has a higher satisfaction
> > rating than any app I've ever heard about. Maybe you're just more
> > comfortable with something else.
>
> Really? I find that almost absurd.

Hey—they're not my ratings. :) The 37signals customers have spoken. You are
clearly one of the people who needs something more robust (and perhaps icky,
like MS Project). For a small team like mine, it's fantastic. It has its
shortcomings, for sure, but overall, it's a great tool for someone in my
position, and almost half the companies in the USA are small and/or
home-based business like mine.

-r-

13 Mar 2008 - 8:53pm
Dave Malouf
2005

No, MS project is not the right tool either.
it is Gant Chart driven and not people driven.
I'm looking for a task = to milestone relationship like MS Project.
I don't understand the mental model that basecamp works under. A milestone
is an end of a collection of tasks, "maybe" but not all tasks terminate at
the same point within a milestone. I'm not even talking about dependencies.

while I'm glad that Basecamp works for you, I think that if it can't work
for a small volunteer only organization, then there is a problem in its
design. But even from a straight heuristic perspective I think the design
suffers from a lot of issues. Some of the issues I mentioned below have
nothing to do with scale or robustness but are just poor usability or
incomplete functionality.

-- dave

On Thu, Mar 13, 2008 at 8:16 PM, Robert Hoekman, Jr. <robert at rhjr.net>
wrote:

>
> > Basecamp is hardly a disaster of design—it has a higher satisfaction
> > > rating than any app I've ever heard about. Maybe you're just more
> > > comfortable with something else.
> >
> > Really? I find that almost absurd.
>
>
> Hey—they're not my ratings. :) The 37signals customers have spoken. You
> are clearly one of the people who needs something more robust (and perhaps
> icky, like MS Project). For a small team like mine, it's fantastic. It has
> its shortcomings, for sure, but overall, it's a great tool for someone in my
> position, and almost half the companies in the USA are small and/or
> home-based business like mine.
>
> -r-
>
>

--
David Malouf
http://synapticburn.com/
http://ixda.org/
http://motorola.com/

18 Mar 2008 - 12:37pm
Dwayne King
2005

On Mar 13, 2008, at 5:16 PM, Robert Hoekman, Jr. wrote:

> The 37signals customers have spoken

Yet I've never met a person face-to-face that actually likes it. I see
a lot of praise on lists and blogs, but everyone I've met that uses it
hates it with a passion (present company included).

I can raise my hand as a small company (7 FT and a dozen contractors)
that doesn't "think like Jason." Perhaps I don't know how to use it
correctly, but then it begs the question, "why is it so hard to figure
out?"

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